Yorkshire Anomalies

General discussions about grading.
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12329
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:34 pm

If you look up the grading data for once prolific poster CWW, you see that his published grade contains 6 games from the most recent six months. If you look at the detail page, you observe that he played 16.


http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=192942C
and
http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=19294 ... 1222827417

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 4854
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:04 pm

It does look wrong, but how on Earth did you find that anomaly?

John McKenna
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby John McKenna » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:36 pm

Seek and ye shall find. But, I've seen bigger numerical discrepancies explained away as typos.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby John Upham » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:44 pm

Possibly the second club of this player suggests an explanation?
Chess Images: http://johnupham.smugmug.com/Chess
IT Manager for the British Chess Magazine: http://www.britishchessmagazine.co.uk
Twitter: @jeupham
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/john.upham

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12329
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:21 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:It does look wrong, but how on Earth did you find that anomaly?


Richard Hadrell's made a comment about players not getting grades if they didn't play anyone with a grade reminded me that I'd seen a comment which implied that it had happened at the Academy CWW ran or runs. This prompted a look up to see what he/they were doing these days.

Actually it's a concession by the ECF to Yorkshire local leagues. These Leagues refused to become members of the ECF and the BCF before it, and were unwilling to pass on sufficient money to the county association to finance it to grade their games through Game Fee on its behalf. As a consequence it's only games played by ECF members that get graded, a feature not available anywhere else in the UK. Reverse-engineering the actual rule, as CWW is no longer an ECF member according to the current and earlier ECF membership lists, I could conclude that the "published" grade is based on games against ECF members with the games against non-members discarded. One or two Yorkshire Congresses follow this practice as well.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:30 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Reverse-engineering the actual rule, as CWW is no longer an ECF member according to the current and earlier ECF membership lists, I could conclude that the "published" grade is based on games against ECF members with the games against non-members discarded. One or two Yorkshire Congresses follow this practice as well.


You've got the answer.

His grade is based on the 6 games played in the Game Fee paying Congress, and his League results have been ignored, for whoever is responsible for paying for it hasn't, and has no intention of so doing.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12329
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:07 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:His grade is based on the 6 games played in the Game Fee paying Congress, and his League results have been ignored, for whoever is responsible for paying for it hasn't, and has no intention of so doing.


It's slightly bizarre looking at the Bradford league. You see a whole list of names with grades attached to them in the schedule of individual results. When you click on one of the players, the grade is null if they didn't play in a Congress or the main whole county Yorkshire league.

For ECF members, the league counts. For example it's included in the 43 game total of
http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=22637 ... 1222827417

Andrew Bak
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:48 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Andrew Bak » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:11 pm

I'm not that au-fait with the different grading systems, and I have read the comments on this topic so far, but am not quite sure that I understand what the actual situation is.

CWW is a member of Yorkshire, but not the ECF. Therefore all the games he plays in Yorkshire are graded by Yorkshire Grading system (lets call this Chessnuts). However, because CWW is not a member of the ECF, nor does the Bradford league pay to have their games ECF rated, these games are not counted. However, the Bradford Congress does pay to have its games ECF rated, therefore these games are counted.

All the games he has played are listed on the ECF site anyway. This is presumably so his opponents can be graded for these games providing they are members of the ECF.

What would happen if CWW decided to join the ECF tomorrow, would these games be added for the purpose of his grading for the July 2012 list, would these games be recounted for the Jan 2012 list or would they not count at all?

I can't help you guys with how Chessnuts works out the results of the games involving "Non-Yorkshire" players, or even how someone is defined as "Non-Yorkshire"! After all, I'm sure that there are some "Non-Yorkshire" players that play in more Yorkshire games that qualify for grading on Chessnuts than some "Yorkshire" players!

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:37 pm

Andrew Bak wrote:I'm not that au-fait with the different grading systems, and I have read the comments on this topic so far, but am not quite sure that I understand what the actual situation is.


I'm not convinced I know fully what the situation is. But the general thrust is that Yorkshire CA pays Game Fee for the Yorkshire League, and that is ECF-graded. However, the non-county leagues do not pay Game Fee, and their games only count towards their grade if a player within that league is an ECF member. Even then, they don't pay the £27 that non MO-territories pay, they pay the £13 basic membership rate, perhaps through the Northern Membership Scheme. Instead, these games get submitted for Yorkshire grading, at a Game Fee rate that is presumably much cheaper than the equivalent ECF rate. This is to be expected, since Yorkshire doesn't have things to worry about like (i) VAT (ii) Teams to send to the Olympiad (iii) Paid staff working in an office. From memory, Leeds is the only league that opts to make "everyone" a member so that they have ECF grades. Indeed, it affiliates to the ECF in its own right. More congresses in Yorkshire are ECF-graded than leagues, and these tend to come with a Game Fee payment.

I don't know what will happen from September, when the new funding arrangements come in.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 12329
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Roger de Coverly » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:27 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: Instead, these games get submitted for Yorkshire grading, at a Game Fee rate that is presumably much cheaper than the equivalent ECF rate.


Very much cheaper. When the question has been asked before, the fee payable to Yorkshire for local grading was stated to be zero.

If this was ETTA (table tennis), Yorkshire players would be banned from the 4NCL and other "national" events for taking part in unregistered leagues.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 7403
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire Anomalies

Postby Alex Holowczak » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:21 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:If this was ETTA (table tennis), Yorkshire players would be banned from the 4NCL and other "national" events for taking part in unregistered leagues.


I don't think you're right to say "If this was table tennis". This would happen in just about any other sport.

I remember when Mohammed Amir was banned from cricket by the ICC due to his involvement in the spot-fixing scandal. He turned out in some minor club match in Surrey, and his ban even covered that. I think the club got off with that one though; the club cited ignorance and dropped him for all future matches.

I don't think the Yorkshire League would be covered as an "unregistered" league, since they do actually pay, but certainly players who play in the non-county leagues apart from Leeds (and any others I forget that chose to affiliate) would be.


Return to “Grading Debate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest