Regular updating

General discussions about grading.
Neill Cooper
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Regular updating

Postby Neill Cooper » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:29 pm

This looks like a great new feature on the grading database, released this afternoon.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Adam Raoof » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:42 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:This looks like a great new feature on the grading database, released this afternoon.


Pleased you like it!

If we can persuade leagues to submit their games more frequently, and tournaments to submit them on time or before the 14 day deadline, then we can make monthly updating a possibility.

Support the ECF and get as many events ECF graded as possible!
Adam Raoof
FIDE International Organiser & Arbiter
Golders Green RP - http://bit.ly/ggrpchess
Hampstead Congresses - http://bit.ly/hampsteadchess
Muswell Hill RP - http://www.muswellhillchess.blogspot.co.uk
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:49 pm

Wouldn't you miss the anticipation of the new grades coming out? :D

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Adam Raoof » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Wouldn't you miss the anticipation of the new grades coming out? :D


Hmm. The advantage of regular updating, as opposed to calculating a new grade monthly, is that you can play in an event at the weekend and see it on your grading record as soon as it is submitted. Theoretically that could be the Monday after the event - it is in the USA. There could be a rough grading calculator on the site to help you work out how you're doing through the season. This would be must better if we can get the biggest leagues in the country to buy into the idea and submit results more often than at the end of the season - that's down to you as players to put pressure on them to do that, if you think it is useful. It is not hard, especially if the leagues in question adopt an ECF compatible management system.
Adam Raoof
FIDE International Organiser & Arbiter
Golders Green RP - http://bit.ly/ggrpchess
Hampstead Congresses - http://bit.ly/hampsteadchess
Muswell Hill RP - http://www.muswellhillchess.blogspot.co.uk
http://www.chessengland.com

Neill Cooper
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Neill Cooper » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:38 pm

Perhaps in future it can be clearer when league graders need to get results in for the next update. I could have done it over half term if I knew it would have been useful.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Ian Thompson » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:21 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:This would be must better if we can get the biggest leagues in the country to buy into the idea and submit results more often than at the end of the season - that's down to you as players to put pressure on them to do that, if you think it is useful. It is not hard, especially if the leagues in question adopt an ECF compatible management system.

What is "an ECF compatible management system", and where would a league get one from?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Adam Raoof » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:06 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:This would be must better if we can get the biggest leagues in the country to buy into the idea and submit results more often than at the end of the season - that's down to you as players to put pressure on them to do that, if you think it is useful. It is not hard, especially if the leagues in question adopt an ECF compatible management system.

What is "an ECF compatible management system", and where would a league get one from?


John Upham, JEU Consultancy Services
Twitter @BCMChess
+44(7976) 634053 (M), +44(1252) 514372 (H), http://www.britishchessmagazine.co.uk

We know that

London League (1400 players)
Surrey Border League
Berkshire League
Chiltern League
Hillingdon & District League
City of London Rapidplay League

manage their grading with his software.
Adam Raoof
FIDE International Organiser & Arbiter
Golders Green RP - http://bit.ly/ggrpchess
Hampstead Congresses - http://bit.ly/hampsteadchess
Muswell Hill RP - http://www.muswellhillchess.blogspot.co.uk
http://www.chessengland.com

Ian Thompson
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Ian Thompson » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:52 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote:
Adam Raoof wrote:This would be must better if we can get the biggest leagues in the country to buy into the idea and submit results more often than at the end of the season - that's down to you as players to put pressure on them to do that, if you think it is useful. It is not hard, especially if the leagues in question adopt an ECF compatible management system.

What is "an ECF compatible management system", and where would a league get one from?


John Upham, JEU Consultancy Services
Twitter @BCMChess
+44(7976) 634053 (M), +44(1252) 514372 (H), http://www.britishchessmagazine.co.uk

We know that

London League (1400 players)
Surrey Border League
Berkshire League
Chiltern League
Hillingdon & District League
City of London Rapidplay League

manage their grading with his software.

I don't know that. As the Surrey Border League Grader, and the person who did the January grading for the Hillingdon & District League and the City of London Rapidplay League, I know that this software, as of mid-January, had no ECF grading capability at all. The data is held in the website database in a proprietary format and has to be converted by the grader into the format required by the ECF. For the 3 leagues I graded, that was achieved by importing the website data into an Access database I developed myself. For one of the other leagues you mention I understand it was achieved by the grader typing the results in the ECF grading format manually.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Adam Raoof » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:03 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:I don't know that. As the Surrey Border League Grader, and the person who did the January grading for the Hillingdon & District League and the City of London Rapidplay League, I know that this software, as of mid-January, had no ECF grading capability at all. The data is held in the website database in a proprietary format and has to be converted by the grader into the format required by the ECF. For the 3 leagues I graded, that was achieved by importing the website data into an Access database I developed myself. For one of the other leagues you mention I understand it was achieved by the grader typing the results in the ECF grading format manually.


Apologies if I have this wrong. Even if that is the case, it seems simple to link up the league management software with ECF grading, though it would be ideal if everyone used the same format. I await John's reply!

I also think that Steve Law from Herts and Jon Griffith of Yorkshire have developed systems.
Adam Raoof
FIDE International Organiser & Arbiter
Golders Green RP - http://bit.ly/ggrpchess
Hampstead Congresses - http://bit.ly/hampsteadchess
Muswell Hill RP - http://www.muswellhillchess.blogspot.co.uk
http://www.chessengland.com

Michael Bennett
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Michael Bennett » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:03 pm

Just wanted to say thanks Ian for reporting the problem with the Board info not having enough characters. This has now been increased to 3 characters, as per ECF spec.
Michael Bennett
Hendon Chess Club: http://www.hendonchessclub.com
Golders Green Rapidplays: http://www.goldersgreenchess.blogspot.com

Paul Cooksey

Re: Regular updating

Postby Paul Cooksey » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:26 pm

I've a feeling I'm about to look stupid, but pressing on regardless...

How much more complex than a csv with half a dozen columns is the input to the ECF system?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Ian Thompson » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:56 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:How much more complex than a csv with half a dozen columns is the input to the ECF system?

Its either a structured text file or a spreadsheet with 3 worksheets containing:

Header Sheet
Event Code
Submission Number
Event Name
Event Date
Final Results Date
Grader Name
Grader Address
Treasurer Name
Treasurer Address
Moves in first session
Minutes for first session
Moves in second session
Minutes in second session
Minutes in final session
Minutes for game
Seconds added per move
Grand Prix

Player List
PIN BCFCode Name Gender DOB ClubCode ClubName BCFMemNo FIDECode Comment Title Initials Forename Surname

Results List
PIN1 PIN2 Result Colour1 Date Board Round Comment

Many of the fields in the Player List and Results List are optional, as are a few in the Header sheet.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:40 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:I've a feeling I'm about to look stupid, but pressing on regardless...

How much more complex than a csv with half a dozen columns is the input to the ECF system?


It's arguably more complicated than it needs to be. The underlying design is over twenty years old and was pre-internet. So the original premise was that of a 720k diskette sent by post to Battle. That's not to say that a lot of work hasn't been done to make it slick and reliable. I rather think the version before that assumed tapes and Sinclair Spectrums.

It's a valid point that counties and leagues will need a dialogue with their graders about how frequently results can be submitted.

Malcolm Peacock
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Re: Regular updating

Postby Malcolm Peacock » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote:I don't know that. As the Surrey Border League Grader, and the person who did the January grading for the Hillingdon & District League and the City of London Rapidplay League, I know that this software, as of mid-January, had no ECF grading capability at all. The data is held in the website database in a proprietary format and has to be converted by the grader into the format required by the ECF. For the 3 leagues I graded, that was achieved by importing the website data into an Access database I developed myself. For one of the other leagues you mention I understand it was achieved by the grader typing the results in the ECF grading format manually.


Apologies if I have this wrong. Even if that is the case, it seems simple to link up the league management software with ECF grading, though it would be ideal if everyone used the same format. I await John's reply!

I also think that Steve Law from Herts and Jon Griffith of Yorkshire have developed systems.


I have developed a system used by the Blackpool and Fylde, and Central Lancashire Leagues (and others if interested). Since I am also a grader, that was the first thing that it did. I let the team captains enter the data for me and just save it in grading XL format. :)
http://popmalc.org.uk/sc/

MSoszynski
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:43 pm

Re: Regular updating

Postby MSoszynski » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:45 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Neill Cooper wrote:This looks like a great new feature on the grading database, released this afternoon.


Pleased you like it!

If we can persuade leagues to submit their games more frequently, and tournaments to submit them on time or before the 14 day deadline, then we can make monthly updating a possibility.

Support the ECF and get as many events ECF graded as possible!


Those winter leagues that recommend or require the ignoring of post-August grades would be adding fuel to the fire by submitting their own results mid-season. Twice-yearly grades and monthly revisions are the elephant in the room for leagues that require September (say) registrations of squads and determination of board order.


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