British Championship 2014 Schedule

[David Sedgwick]

but I assume that Athens Office will have the document.

Then someone from one of the federations should ask them for it before they all decamp to Tromso. This is a busy time!

Okay, I'll do that.

[NickFaulks]

Okay, I'll do that.

But as I said in my edit, it would also seem logical to ask the successor to the BCF.

[Neil Graham]

If Joe was disappointed that he did not receive the FM title, it must be that it was advertised he would and that it was in the regulations. I have no memory of any problem, which suggests I was not contacted about the failure of FIDE to award this title. It would be difficult to clear up now and may not be of interest to him. But in 2004 it would have been no problem for me.

I have both the programme and the entry form for the 2004 Championship. There is nothing in either that states the winner of the FIDE World Major would be awarded the FIDE master title.

[Stewart Reuben]

What Neil has written suggests that Joe misunderstood. None of the material I still have on my computer refers to such a regulation. Of course Neil was in charge, not me. I don't even know from my written records who the Chief Arbiter was. although surely it was David Welch Chief Arbiter of the whole congress. The bulletin would be helpful. My copy is probably in Twickenham.
I expect I made the proposal to FIDE direct concerning the regulations for the World Major and the then BCF had little to do with the whole process. I do remember that Neil thought it should be under 2360 as that was the rule for the Major Open at that time. But I made it 2350 as FIDE would have been bemused by a non-round number. At the time the MO was under 220 for English players which equated to 2360.

[Gordon Cadden]

I would suspect that there were fewer qualifying places available for players, throughout last season as well.

I am slightly disappointed at the lack of participation of the stronger Welsh players at this event, namely James Cobb and Richard Jones, amongst others.

James Cobb attended university in Wales, but believe that he originates from Swindon. Richard Jones is living in Australia.

[E Michael White]

..The bulletin would be helpful. My copy is probably in Twickenham....

....What Neil has written suggests that Joe misunderstood. None of the material I still have on my computer refers to such a regulation. Of course Neil was in charge, not me. I don't even know from my written records who the Chief Arbiter was, although surely it was David Welch Chief Arbiter of the whole congress.

I have the bulletin for the 2004 World Major; it is a strange document. It contains all the games and cross table but the introduction by Neil Graham doesn't mention the World Major, Joe Redpath or any FM title. The names of the arbiters are given as:- John Turnock, Priscilla Morris and Roger Edwards.

[Lewis Martin]

I would suspect that there were fewer qualifying places available for players, throughout last season as well.

I am slightly disappointed at the lack of participation of the stronger Welsh players at this event, namely James Cobb and Richard Jones, amongst others.

James Cobb attended university in Wales, but believe that he originates from Swindon. Richard Jones is living in Australia.

Ah, that explains why Richard Jones wasn't participating in the 4NCL. As for him living in Australia, it didn't stop him from being registered to play in the Olympiad! The fact that it is more prestigious and having to play 2 2-week tournaments is a lot (particularly if he has a job) might have something to do with it!

I knew James Cobb wasn't really Welsh, but he is registered as a Welsh player according to FIDE. His brother Charles is registered with England.

Ok, even if you take them aside, you still have Howard Williams, Iolo Jones and John Cooper as a few examples. Though, John Cooper seems to only play in the 4NCL...

It is a personal choice of course, to play in the British. (It is probably a bit rich from me since I have only played in it once since 2004! Indeed, I have no plans at the moment to play in 2015)

[JustinHadi]

....What Neil has written suggests that Joe misunderstood. None of the material I still have on my computer refers to such a regulation. Of course Neil was in charge, not me. I don't even know from my written records who the Chief Arbiter was, although surely it was David Welch Chief Arbiter of the whole congress.

I expect I made the proposal to FIDE direct concerning the regulations for the World Major and the then BCF had little to do with the whole process. I do remember that Neil thought it should be under 2360 as that was the rule for the Major Open at that time. But I made it 2350 as FIDE would have been bemused by a non-round number. At the time the MO was under 220 for English players which equated to 2360.

If Joe was disappointed that he did not receive the FM title, it must be that it was advertised he would and that it was in the regulations. I have no memory of any problem, which suggests I was not contacted about the failure of FIDE to award this title. It would be difficult to clear up now and may not be of interest to him. But in 2004 it would have been no problem for me.

It looks pretty clear that the medallists for the World Major should have been awarded the FM title and the champion should have been awarded a 9 round IM norm.

12. The World Major medallists shall be awarded the title of FIDE master. The Champion shall be awarded a 9 round im norm

The link is below.

http://www.fide.com/fide/fide-commissio ... eport.html

[Stewart Reuben]

Dear Justin,
Thanks for finding the minutes of the Organisers Committee of which I was chairman, where it is clear that winning the World Major gave an FM title and an IM norm.
However, that was only the committee. It could have been changed by the Executive Board or the General Assembly in 2002. I don't remember any discussion about the matter. But it was 12 years ago.

I do remember a question was raised about the First World Senior Team Championship being raised in 2003. That took place in the Isle of Man in 2004. I said that it was too late now to change the regulations of an event already in the process of being organised.
Anybody wondering how it was we ran two new World Championships in the British Isles in 2004. That year was the Centenary of the BCF and they were a relatively inexpensive way of celebrating that.

[Neil Graham]

..The bulletin would be helpful. My copy is probably in Twickenham....

....What Neil has written suggests that Joe misunderstood. None of the material I still have on my computer refers to such a regulation. Of course Neil was in charge, not me. I don't even know from my written records who the Chief Arbiter was, although surely it was David Welch Chief Arbiter of the whole congress.

I have the bulletin for the 2004 World Major; it is a strange document. It contains all the games and cross table but the introduction by Neil Graham doesn't mention the World Major, Joe Redpath or any FM title. The names of the arbiters are given as:- John Turnock, Priscilla Morris and Roger Edwards.

I have a copy of the Championship Bulletin which has an introduction by myself - I guess the same introduction was added to the Major Bulletin - it is a very generalised statement about the event and includes a reference to "Otto Titzling" the alleged inventor of the brassiere and pointing out that this question from the Sunday Quiz culled from numerous sources was, in fact, a long-standing urban myth.

[JustinHadi]

but I assume that Athens Office will have the document.

Then someone from one of the federations should ask them for it before they all decamp to Tromso. This is a busy time!

Edit : Annex 44 was a BCF proposal, why wouldn't they have it?

The link to the Annex is below.

http://www.fide.com/news/download/Annex ... x%2044.pdf

The link to the minutes of the 2002 General Assembly meeting is broken on the FIDE website but available on the wayback machine. There is no mention of the FIDE world major.

http://web.archive.org/web/200502160449 ... ga2003.pdf

The link to the Executive board meeting minutes from the 2002 Bled congress is not available on the FIDE website.

The link to the Option form to offer/bid for the World major championship is below.

http://www.fide.com/news/download/Annex19.pdf

[JustinHadi]

Dear Justin,
Thanks for finding the minutes of the Organisers Committee of which I was chairman, where it is clear that winning the World Major gave an FM title and an IM norm.
However, that was only the committee. It could have been changed by the Executive Board or the General Assembly in 2002. I don't remember any discussion about the matter. But it was 12 years ago.

I do remember a question was raised about the First World Senior Team Championship being raised in 2003. That took place in the Isle of Man in 2004. I said that it was too late now to change the regulations of an event already in the process of being organised.
Anybody wondering how it was we ran two new World Championships in the British Isles in 2004. That year was the Centenary of the BCF and they were a relatively inexpensive way of celebrating that.

Dear Stewart,
There's no evidence of any overrule so can we assume the players involved should have been awarded the FM title and a nine round IM norm for the champion? If so it's down to the players and national federations to apply for the title now. The second and third place players may not even know about the regulations agreed.

Justin

[David Sedgwick]

Dear Stewart,

There's no evidence of any overrule so can we assume the players involved should have been awarded the FM title and a nine round IM norm for the champion? If so it's down to the players and national federations to apply for the title now. The second and third place players may not even know about the regulations agreed.

Justin

Thank you for your help in tracking down various links which are still coming up for me as broken on the FIDE website.

I have the bulletin for the 2004 World Major; it is a strange document. It contains all the games and cross table but the introduction by Neil Graham doesn't mention the World Major, Joe Redpath or any FM title. The names of the arbiters are given as:- John Turnock, Priscilla Morris and Roger Edwards.

Thank you also for your help.


In addition I'm pleased to be able to report and acknowledge that I've had prompt and helpful responses from the FIDE Offices in Athens and Elista.

I now have the necessary information to enable the matter to be taken forward as Justin suggests and I'll circulate the key people accordingly.

[JoeRedpath]

If Joe was disappointed that he did not receive the FM title, it must be that it was advertised he would and that it was in the regulations. I have no memory of any problem, which suggests I was not contacted about the failure of FIDE to award this title. It would be difficult to clear up now and may not be of interest to him. But in 2004 it would have been no problem for me.

Hi Stewart,

I was informed that I received the FM title and IM norm a few days after the event (I was actually in Hungary at the time) and it came as a bit of a surprise as I was not expecting it! I then contacted Dougie Bryson (Chief grading Officer at the time) a couple of weeks later to try and get the title officially awarded by FIDE. Unfortunately I did not keep the e-mail correspondence from 10 years ago so I can't remember the exact reply from FIDE, but I think they claimed that the BCF had not registered/agreed that the FM title/norm would be awarded for the Major Open Winner (in other words they had no record). I can't remember if anyone from Chess Scotland contacted you directly about the matter.

My disappointment came from the fact that I was told I had been awarded a title and then to have it taken away a few weeks later was disheartening. I don't think it should have been published until it was clear there would be no problems in having the title awarded by FIDE. I was only 18 at the time, so you can imagine how getting an FM title was quite a big deal back then!

I would certainly be interested to clear it up, however it is 10 years ago now so not sure if that is still possible, but if so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Joe Redpath

(PS thanks to Alistair Campbell for drawing my attention to this thread!)

[Douglas Bryson]

I still have the correspondence relating to Joe Redpath's FM title and IM norm.

***

In August 2004 Stewart Reuben made initial contact with the SCA.

"I had forgotten something regarding the World Major Championship.
According to the 2002 regulations, which I wrote!
Joe Redpath is entitled to the FIDE Master title. His result also counts as one IM norm.

Sabrina Chevannes gets the title of Women's World Major Champion and is entitled to the title of Woman FIDE Master.

Please ensure this appears on our website, also that the two players are
informed and that their title claims are pursued."
Stewart Reuben

***

In October 2004 the SCA contacted the FIDE office to request Joe Redpath was awarded the FM title. We indicated we would meet any financial obligations.

In December 2004 the FIDE office replied:

"We are advised by the Qualification Commission Chairman that as the regulations stand now, and as they stood at the time of the competition, they do not mention World Major at all, and therefore, the FM title cannot be awarded.

We shall forward your application to the Qualification Commission at its next meeting."

Nadia Ulyumdzhieva
Elista FIDE Office

***

SCA contacted Stewart Reuben in December to mention the FIDE reply.

Content of email Stewart Reuben to Mikko Markkula in reference to the FIDE reply.

"This is quite wrong. The event was held in 2004. The FIDE General Assembly passed the regulations D.VII.03 for the World Major Championship in 2002. This included the provision of the title of FIDE Master for the winner of the event and the title of FIDE Woman master for the winner of the World Major Women's Championship, which is subsumed within the tournament. It would be odd if it didn't, because titles of that status are awarded for the Amateur Championship, a much weaker event. These two players also receive an im norm and wim norm each of 9 rounds,
You can find the wording of the regulations on the FIDE website within the Organizers Committee minutes which were passed wihout question by the GA and some of the details of other events were confirmed in 2003.
The reason the proposed titles did not appear in the draft Titles and Ratings Regulations of 2002 was because the proposal came at the same time and thus the existence of the event had to be confirmed before they could be in the regulations."

and the reply in the other direction

"I have been asked frequently about this World Major title and also FISU Competition titles, I was told that they were decided in Bled. I cannot find anything about FISU and I have heard that there was a proposal in the Orginsers' Committee concerning World Major, that proposal or decision was never presented in the QC meeting.
The document I am using as my rule book for titles is the Title and Rating Regulations approved by T&R, QC and General Assembly. Neither the one approved in Bled nor any subsequent version mention World Major, which may be a mistake.
I have a copy of the most recent version on paper, it was printed by Werner in the conference room at the end of our meeting. There is nothing about World Major.
If you want, I could scan it and send it to you.
I am sorry, but I think we must wait for the next QC meeting where we can approve the amendments and, in the positive case, even award the titles retroactively."
Regards Mikko

***

Joe indicated he never got an IM norm certificate from the BCF.

***

The SCA never received any further communication from FIDE or any of the above mentioned on the issue. We assumed an error in making the initial title and norm claim.