Move Rates - Southend

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Brian Towers
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:34 am

Let's try this one again, Ian. Perhaps a bit more slowly.

Please could you define for me what constitutes an illegal two-handed pawn promotion which should be punished by the arbiter.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:19 am

Brian Towers wrote:Let's try this one again, Ian. Perhaps a bit more slowly.

Please could you define for me what constitutes an illegal two-handed pawn promotion which should be punished by the arbiter.
For example, a pawn promotion involving a capture where you remove your opponent's piece from the board with one hand and remove your pawn from the board with your other hand.

Brian Towers
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:46 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Brian Towers wrote:Let's try this one again, Ian. Perhaps a bit more slowly.

Please could you define for me what constitutes an illegal two-handed pawn promotion which should be punished by the arbiter.
For example, a pawn promotion involving a capture where you remove your opponent's piece from the board with one hand and remove your pawn from the board with your other hand.
That's essentially a capture which I already defined for you.

Try again.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:30 pm

Am I missing something or do these two handed moves/captures/promotions described by Brian Towers take much longer and/or are much clumsier than the single handed versions. The real point of the rules is to guard against someone having one hand next to the clock and using the other hand to make the moves. Just use one hand to make the move and press the clock. Anything else is just silly.

Brian Towers
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:49 am

Christopher, I mostly agree with your points.

I did point out very early on in the "discussion" that in probably at least 99% of the cases the promoter had the queen in his hand long before the pawn reached the 7th and may or may not have waved said queen under his opponents nose as he picked it up to imply "Hey, punk! Don't you think it's time you resigned?"

The pathological situations I described only arise when the piece required for promotion is not readily to hand either due to a last minute change of plan or because the required piece is still on the board. It really only gets interesting / difficult when the player has to stop the clocks and ask the arbiter to fetch the missing piece and when did you last see that happen? What happens in the notorious "arbiter-free" London League? Does the player stop the clocks and ask one of his mates? Or if everybody else has gone home / down the pub does he head off and hunt for a queen himself?
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

E Michael White
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by E Michael White » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:22 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:That's my thought - the pawn promotion in the above example gives mate WHATEVER piece White chooses to replace the pawn.

Given that, once it reaches e8 it is game over - surely?
Hello Matt, just noticed this post.

The reason why it is not checkmate is that the game has not reached a position where it is Black to move. For it to be checkmate the following have to have taken place :-
  1. it must be Black to move, which is a consequence of FIDE rule 1.2
  2. to be Black to move White must have made his previous move as stated in FIDE rule 1.1
  3. White can make his promotion move in 2 ways either :-
    1. complying with FIDE rule 4.7.c, removing the pawn on the 7th and replacing it with a piece on the eighth.
    2. or pushing the pawn to the eighth and pressing the clock as in FIDE rule 7.5.c
In either case C1 or C.2. the actions must take place before the arbiter determined his flag fell. For the new rules the CAA should clarify the position in their guidance notes. The big difference for C2 in the new rules is that White's move is not made until he presses the clock when it is also completed, whereas for C1 it is made when White has moved the relevant pieces.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:35 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Matt Mackenzie wrote:That's my thought - the pawn promotion in the above example gives mate WHATEVER piece White chooses to replace the pawn.

Given that, once it reaches e8 it is game over - surely?
Hello Matt, just noticed this post.

The reason why it is not checkmate is that the game has not reached a position where it is Black to move. For it to be checkmate the following have to have taken place :-
What you say may well be true, but a simpler reason the game is not over is:

Law 5.1 - "The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."

Law 4.7 - "When, as a legal move or part of a legal move, ..."

Law 7.5 a - "... If the player has moved a pawn to the furthest distant rank, pressed the clock, but not replaced the pawn with a new piece, the move is illegal ... "

So Law 5.1 says that it's only checkmate if the move played was legal and Law 7.5 says that leaving a pawn on the 8th rank is illegal. Therefore it's not checkmate and the game is not over.

Richard Bates
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:06 pm

Changed again...

Now 40 in 90' +30' + 30" per move.

Better get the fitness regime going... ;)

NickFaulks
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:47 pm

Brian Towers wrote: What happens in the notorious "arbiter-free" London League?
One thing that happens is that the players adopt the well understood convention that an upside-down rook functions as a second queen. They are free to do this since there is no interfering arbiter to stop them.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:56 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Brian Towers wrote: What happens in the notorious "arbiter-free" London League?
One thing that happens is that the players adopt the well understood convention that an upside-down rook functions as a second queen. They are free to do this since there is no interfering arbiter to stop them.
... until their opponent claims they've made an illegal move when they move the upside-down rook diagonally.

Brian Towers
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Re: Move Rates - Southend

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:28 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Brian Towers wrote: What happens in the notorious "arbiter-free" London League?
One thing that happens is that the players adopt the well understood convention that an upside-down rook functions as a second queen. They are free to do this since there is no interfering arbiter to stop them.
Good to see that there are still plenty of Pink Floyd fans in the London League ;-)
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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