Colour split in league matches

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Simon Ansell
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 10:27 am

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Simon Ansell » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:34 pm

I had a spell of roughly 80% Black in the London and Middlesex Leagues over 4-5 years recently, where the colours are decided by the toss of a coin. Richard Bates was the usual beneficiary of the Whites, so it was probably close to optimal for Hackney's performance as I'm relatively good with Black and Richard the same with White!

As a result I have no White openings (but I never really did anyway...).

Edit: Being a poker player, I know from experience that such stretches of winning and losing coinflips are far more common than most people realise. Someone else can provide the maths, Jack has made a start.

Brian Valentine
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:20 pm

Having had a majority of games with black in every season I've played in the Herts league (colours decided by coin toss) I came to the conclusion that these runs can be exceedingly unlikely, but when they happen those concerned tend to notice it. Hence we get posts on such subjects by those unlucky fellows. Has anyone noticed getting too many whites?

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 5205
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:54 pm

Beats me why anybody still does match colours by coin toss, tbh - I may have said this before, almost as much of a personal bugbear as adjudications :D

What, exactly, is so difficult about "home/away (delete as applicable) team gets white on odd boards" for anybody to understand?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Clive Blackburn

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Clive Blackburn » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:07 pm

Many years ago I was in a club where one guy played black almost exclusively. He was not a strong player and played on board 5 of 5 for our lowest team in the lesgue. He never played in the club championship. The reason he hardly ever got white was that he made it very clear that he wasn't prepared to travel to away matches, so he was just used as a filler for home matches when we were really desparate! :-D

Ian Thompson
Posts: 3551
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:34 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:Beats me why anybody still does match colours by coin toss, tbh - I may have said this before, almost as much of a personal bugbear as adjudications :D

What, exactly, is so difficult about "home/away (delete as applicable) team gets white on odd boards" for anybody to understand?
I am aware of a league that plays double-round (home and away) each season, with an odd number of boards in each match, and still tosses for colours!!

I did suggest that was changed, but the league organiser didn't want to. I've had 8 black in 9 games since then.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 5821
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:24 am

"What, exactly, is so difficult about "home/away (delete as applicable) team gets white on odd boards" for anybody to understand?"

People seem to worry that the board order will be amended to give certain players set colours. This tends to give an even bigger imbalance of colours!

However, I played most of a season getting black on board 1, until I discovered that the captain (who played on an even-numbered board) was taking black on one when he won the toss, and of course the opposition invariably took white on won when they won the toss. Surrey League makes it compulsory to take white on one if you win the toss, which offers a better chance of randomizing a player's colours.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:08 pm

The Yorkshire league moved to fixed colours from coin tosses a couple of years back and I actually preferred it when it was random. With home/away getting white on odd boards then board orders will be fixed for colours at times, which I don't like so much :)

I try not to do it much, but when you've got a big match coming up then what are you meant to do when some of your players have notable performance disparities/the odd player is actively asking for black?

David Williams
Posts: 336
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:37 pm

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by David Williams » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:33 pm

Assuming you play each team twice in a season, even better would be for the away team to play white on all boards. Any individual playing all matches is guaranteed an equal number of whites and blacks, late withdrawals don't mean everyone having to change colours. (Tried for one season hereabouts and abandoned because no-one but me liked it - though no-one really said why they didn't like it.)

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:25 pm

I presume they disliked it because it made all the individual matches badly one sided - I'd hate it on those grounds :)

Yes it balanced over the season, but that doesn't quite make up for it.

Clive Blackburn

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Clive Blackburn » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:34 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:I presume they disliked it because it made all the individual matches badly one sided - I'd hate it on those grounds
That depends on the player, some players have a better record as black than as white

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:43 pm

True, although not that many notably better and more the other way :)

The database edge is 55-45 or so, or 5 grading pts/board. More significant than that in matches I'd think though as its so much easier to control a game when you've got white.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 4542
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:59 pm

Matt >
What, exactly, is so difficult about "home/away (delete as applicable) team gets white on odd boards" for anybody to understand?<

That wouldn't work well for Cavendish in the London League. We ply most of our matches at home.


Of course the real answer is that the mistake was made in the 19th century. You should play one game of each colour with each opponent. Had thy organised a large number of tournaments that way, that is what we would do today and think nothing of it.
I may be organising a standardplay Swiss later this year where each round consists of two games against the same opponent, one with white and one with black.

Brian Towers
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Brian Towers » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:47 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote: That wouldn't work well for Cavendish in the London League. We ply most of our matches at home.
Out of curiosity, is Cavendish one of Her Majesty's correctional institutions?
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 4542
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:15 pm

Sometimes it feels like that.
So do Metropolitan, Athenaeum, Drunken Knights and possibly some others.
The rest play at a central venue. Thus basing the colour on board 1 on who plays away doesn't work.

Jonathan Bryant
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Am I just unfortunate?

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:24 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:Sometimes it feels like that.
So do Metropolitan, Athenaeum, Drunken Knights and possibly some others.
The rest play at a central venue. Thus basing the colour on board 1 on who plays away doesn't work.
Morley College also have their own venue in the London League. And London Deaf. At least I assume they still do. Haven’t played at either for a while.

Not beyond the wit of chessers to fix this alleged colour-home team problem is it? What’s wrong with designating half of Cavendish’s et al’s matches as "away for colour purposes".

Post Reply