Query on entry fees for non-ENG players

[Andy Ward]

Hi all,

After 8 years north of the border I am moving back to the Midlands for the foreseeable future. Since I have membership of Chess Scotland until the end of this year I am wondering whether I am still required to hold the different levels of ECF membership for entering certain tournaments/paying additional entry fees and so on? Would appreciate knowing as I am looking at playing locally when I get back.

Cheers

[IM Jack Rudd]

If the events in question are FIDE-rated, non-ENG players are allowed to play without being ECF members, and will not attract pay-to-play fees of any sort.

If they are not FIDE-rated, ENG players and non-ENG players are treated identically; either you will need to be a member, or the event will be liable for pay-to-play fees for your entry.

[Andy Ward]

If the events in question are FIDE-rated, non-ENG players are allowed to play without being ECF members, and will not attract pay-to-play fees of any sort.

If they are not FIDE-rated, ENG players and non-ENG players are treated identically; either you will need to be a member, or the event will be liable for pay-to-play fees for your entry.

Excellent, thanks. Dual affiliation it is

[Roger de Coverly]

Since I have membership of Chess Scotland until the end of this year I am wondering whether I am still required to hold the different levels of ECF membership for entering certain tournaments/paying additional entry fees and so on? Would appreciate knowing as I am looking at playing locally when I get back.

Is this you?

https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2406020

If so, then you can play in FIDE rated events as a Scottish player and the ECF will leave you alone. For non FIDE rated Congresses, the organiser will probably ask for an extra £ 7 unless you become an ECF Silver member. If you play more than a handful of games in leagues, the club you play for will likely ask you to join the ECF as at least a Bronze member, as otherwise every one of your appearances will cost them £ 2.50

Whether Chess Scotland will insist on continued membership if you return to England, I don't know. Under parallel circumstances, someone with an English FIDE rating moving to Scotland would have been expunged from the FIDE rating site, unless they continued with ECF Gold membership. Last year the ECF Council voted at one of its biannual meetings to discontinue this vindictive practice.

There's no reciprocal membership agreement between Chess Scotland and the ECF, although I think English Congresses which aim to attract Scottish players, Scarborough and Blackpool being examples, may absorb the extra fees payable to the ECF for Scottish non-members if the players are Chess Scotland members. Either that or they have a secret waiver deal.

[Andy Ward]

Since I have membership of Chess Scotland until the end of this year I am wondering whether I am still required to hold the different levels of ECF membership for entering certain tournaments/paying additional entry fees and so on? Would appreciate knowing as I am looking at playing locally when I get back.

Is this you?

https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=2406020

If so, then you can play in FIDE rated events as a Scottish player and the ECF will leave you alone. For non FIDE rated Congresses, the organiser will probably ask for an extra £ 7 unless you become an ECF Silver member. If you play more than a handful of games in leagues, the club you play for will likely ask you to join the ECF as at least a Bronze member, as otherwise every one of your appearances will cost them £ 2.50

Whether Chess Scotland will insist on continued membership if you return to England, I don't know. Under parallel circumstances, someone with an English FIDE rating moving to Scotland would have been expunged from the FIDE rating site, unless they continued with ECF Gold membership. Last year the ECF Council voted at one of its biannual meetings to discontinue this vindictive practice.

There's no reciprocal membership agreement between Chess Scotland and the ECF, although I think English Congresses which aim to attract Scottish players, Scarborough and Blackpool being examples, may absorb the extra fees payable to the ECF for Scottish non-members if the players are Chess Scotland members. Either that or they have a secret waiver deal.

Yes that is me. I played in the British last summer as a Scottish player though I didn't know if any special exemptions applied for that since it was a British tournament. I entered Preston last November and paid the full entry fee as a non-ECF member but I wasn't sure if there is sometimes an agreement to waive membership fees for those who are already paid up at other associations. Chess Scotland doesn't expunge gradings and in fact keep them on record on a permanent basis so that people have something to come back to if they leave the game for a while, so I'm not concerned about that.

My main issue here is that I could be paying out for two lots of membership so I am just weighing up whether it is worth the extra outlay or to take the hit on entry fees.

[Roger de Coverly]

Chess Scotland doesn't expunge gradings and in fact keep them on record on a permanent basis so that people have something to come back to if they leave the game for a while, so I'm not concerned about that.

What the ECF used to do was to remove players from the FIDE site if they didn't make an annual payment to the ECF and continued to play in FIDE rated events. That made it look as if they had been suspended for cheating.

[Andy Ward]

Chess Scotland doesn't expunge gradings and in fact keep them on record on a permanent basis so that people have something to come back to if they leave the game for a while, so I'm not concerned about that.

What the ECF used to do was to remove players from the FIDE site if they didn't make an annual payment to the ECF and continued to play in FIDE rated events. That made it look as if they had been suspended for cheating.

Well I agree that isn't a fair way of doing things. The way CS sees it is that people take breaks from chess all the time and for a variety of reasons, and indeed a good number go elsewhere. So your grading is always there, though the longer it's left of course it loses its accuracy. The point is you have something to come back to and you can always submit games played outside the country for grading whether they are FIDE or not.

At the end of the day I want to keep up my chess down here and am trying to figure out the most economical way of doing it.

[Roger de Coverly]

I played in the British last summer as a Scottish player though I didn't know if any special exemptions applied for that since it was a British tournament.

The ECF exempts itself from its own rules. The weekday tournament was FIDE rated and I think the weekend tournament was not. Had a third party been running the tournament, there would have been an additional entry fee for non-members in the weekend event. If it weren't for the point that in the absence of sponsorship the ratio of prize fund to entry fee is poor value in the side events of British Championship Congress, the ECF could be accused of unfair competition in waiving non-membership fees for the Scots, Irish and Welsh.

[Roger de Coverly]

At the end of the day I want to keep up my chess down here and am trying to figure out the most economical way of doing it.

If you don't want to remain Scottish in FIDE, it's going to cost a three figure sum in Euros to change it. That's FIDE rather than Chess Scotland or the ECF.

But if you do remain Scottish for FIDE purposes, it appears you can safely lapse Chess Scotland membership unless you want to keep your Chess Scotland rating active. The highest English membership you would need is Silver, relying on being SCO if you chose to enter any FIDE rated events.

[Andy Ward]

I played in the British last summer as a Scottish player though I didn't know if any special exemptions applied for that since it was a British tournament.

The ECF exempts itself from its own rules. The weekday tournament was FIDE rated and I think the weekend tournament was not. Had a third party been running the tournament, there would have been an additional entry fee for non-members in the weekend event. If it weren't for the point that in the absence of sponsorship the ratio of prize fund to entry fee is poor value in the side events of British Championship Congress, the ECF could be accused of unfair competition in waiving non-membership fees for the Scots, Irish and Welsh.

Fortunately I am at a stage in my chess development where the prize money isn't much of a consideration but I take your point. I do think though that events put down as 'British' should treat the membership of all British associations the same, or else call it the English Championships. Since the most my CS membership gets me is at most £2 off tournament entry the ECF does seem to save more in the long run.

[Andy Ward]

At the end of the day I want to keep up my chess down here and am trying to figure out the most economical way of doing it.

If you don't want to remain Scottish in FIDE, it's going to cost a three figure sum in Euros to change it. That's FIDE rather than Chess Scotland or the ECF.

But if you do remain Scottish for FIDE purposes, it appears you can safely lapse Chess Scotland membership unless you want to keep your Chess Scotland rating active. The highest English membership you would need is Silver, relying on being SCO if you chose to enter any FIDE rated events.

Yeah, I am quite fine remaining Scottish for FIDE purposes, if nothing else because I have a few games under it already. I can retain CS membership/gradings at no great difficulty if I choose to go back. My query is primarily about investing in ECF Silver membership as opposed to taking a hit on entry fees. The fee for league games for example was new to me.

[Roger de Coverly]

My query is primarily about investing in ECF Silver membership as opposed to taking a hit on entry fees. The fee for league games for example was new to me.

The benchmark is that if you play around three Congress sections, so fifteen games perhaps in a season that aren't FIDE rated, then it's financially better to become a Silver member. For league games, the benchmark is at around six games. Congress only players get a much better deal. There's an implicit assumption, arguably incorrect, that every Congress player is also a league player. The difference between Bronze and Silver is the same as the additional cost for one Congress, but the financial compulsion to become a member kicks in at a much lower game count for club and league players.

[Alan Walton]

This post is like catnip for Roger

[Roger de Coverly]

This post is like catnip for Roger

On balance, do you think the introduction of semi compulsory membership has
(a) increased participation
(b) left it about the same
(c) reduced participation?

And if membership fees increase as seems to be an ECF objective, what effect would this have? What do the snake oil salesmen, particularly in the NCCU who claimed membership would be cheaper than Game Fee have to say ?

[John Upham]

That made it look as if they had been suspended for cheating.

It is fortunate indeed that you did not pursue a career in a part of the legal profession or perhaps provide dialogue for Leonard Nimoy in his most well-known role.