Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
David Robertson
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by David Robertson » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:25 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:06 pm
Nick Burrows wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:51 pm
3/5 Div 2 fixtures next season are in Telford which is a 2 hour drive
Oxford have the geographic fortune to be not much more than an hour away almost wherever the 4NCL is located, apart from Telford. Again depending where you start, it's less than two hours to Telford from Oxfordshire. I've done it in two hours from Marlow and I'm driving past Oxford after about twenty five to thirty minutes
We so need David Pardoe here...he was so good...on journey times...and motorways, especially from....The North. It always took so much longer...anywhere to anywhere....in Pardoe-time. And the steak-and-ale pie was always to be....welcomed after the game...especially if provided...maybe, just a thought...by Mrs Truran

Mike Truran
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:18 am

I'll have you know that Mrs Truran's Mushroom Risotto has featured regularly on the Witney Chess Club annual dinner menu for a number of years now. :D

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:21 am

Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Ian Jamieson
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Ian Jamieson » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:46 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:08 am
Looks like a 4 team race for the 2 promotion spots

I wonder if we will see Gonzaga v Shrops 1 and Bradford A at weekend 4, with 3Cs 2 playing both too, leaving Gonzaga v 3Cs 2 to the final weekend
I have tried and failed to predict the pairings so far but I'll have another go.

I don't think we will see those pairings.

I think that the top 4 current teams will play each other over the final weekend, although Shropshire 1 and Bradford a will have to be downfloated while gonzaga play 3cs2 (in the last round?) because they have already played each other.

Although this may seem slightly unfair to teams outside the current top 4 if the pairings work out the way I think they are planned to work out then all of the current top 8 teams will have played all the other top 8 teams with the exception of 3cs2 who don't have enough rounds left to play all of the rest of the teams.

However The pairings are done they will have to ensure there are legal pairings for the remaining rounds.

I think my team, shropshire 1 will play either spirit of attics b or Cheddleton 2 plus one other lower team or both soab and chedd2 next weekend. Personally I think the later is more likely but as I said I have failed to predict the pairings so far.

Neil Graham
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Neil Graham » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:19 pm

I understood that we were now, thankfully, starting with Swiss pairings for the rest of the tournament. Consequently Gonzaga should play 3C's 2 next round and Shropshire 1 & Bradford A should play Atticus & Cheddleton. The idea of the pairing system was to keep the top teams apart for the first few rounds not to keep teams apart till the last weekend.

Alan Walton
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:07 am

Neil Graham wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:19 pm
I understood that we were now, thankfully, starting with Swiss pairings for the rest of the tournament. Consequently Gonzaga should play 3C's 2 next round and Shropshire 1 & Bradford A should play Atticus & Cheddleton. The idea of the pairing system was to keep the top teams apart for the first few rounds not to keep teams apart till the last weekend.
One possible theory to make the promotion push as competitive as possible is for the current top 8 to play against each other in the final five rounds; you could argue teams on 6 match points are not going to make the top two

The following is how many possibly pairings available for each team

6 Possible Pairings : 3Cs 2
5 Possible Pairings : Gonzaga & Ched 2
4 Possible Pairings : Shrop 1, Brad A, SoA B, WS2 & Jorvik

I think you could possibly derive a fixture list from these, with WS2 & Jorvik possible playing outside these if fixtures dictate; the other 12 teams play against each other

Alan Walton
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:39 am

Looking it at this in more detail you can get the following pairings for Round 7-10 (rounds are interchangeable)

Rd 7 : WS 2 v Gonzaga; 3Cs 2 v Brad A; Shrop 1 v Ched 2; SoA B v Jorvik
Rd 8 : Gonzaga v Jorvik; 3Cs 2 v Shrop 1; Brad A v SoA B; WS 2 v Ched 2
Rd 9 : Gonzaga v Brad A; 3Cs 2 v WS 2; Shrop 1 v SoA B; Ched 2 v Jorvik
Rd 10 : Gonzaga v Shrop A; 3Cs 2 v Jorvik; Brad A v Ched 2; SoA B v WS 2

This will leave the 3Cs 2 v Gonzaga match as the last game for the title if it comes to that; with all other teams playing Rd 11 as a normal Swiss

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:36 pm

David Robertson wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:15 pm
This pairing system would be used for the first 3 weekends and the option of doing so on weekend 4 would be kept as a possibility. (A fourth weekend would ensure the top teams playing in the final weekend but if there was a lot of bunching for the second promotion spot then it might prevent sufficient remaining rounds to ‘sort out’ the true second best team.) If at the end of weekend 3 there were 9 or more teams within 2 points of a promotion spot then it is advisable to pair these teams together in weekend 4 (rd7) and therefore abandon the avoidance pairings. If there are only 4 or 5 teams fighting for promotion then continuing the pairing system for an extra round (or possibly 2) is acceptable.

For the remaining rounds a straight Swiss would be used.

This procedure should ensure that the top teams are kept apart for as long as possible. The only potential problem could arise if the initial seeding is not accurate
I'm going back to this, extracting the relevant bit from the pairing advice issued pre season by Alex Mc

Given a promotion slot is currently 12/12, there are only 2 teams on 10 within 2 points (and 2 on 8 and 2 on 7 anywhere close), so Alan's suggestion has merit
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Alan Walton
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:59 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:36 pm
Given a promotion slot is currently 12/12, there are only 2 teams on 10 within 2 points (and 2 on 8 and 2 on 7 anywhere close), so Alan's suggestion has merit
I think it is pretty much set in stone that the teams currently on 6 match points have pretty much no chance of promotion

These team can theoretically only get up to 16 match points; and with the pairings I previous suggested, if you assume the team with the lower match points wins (or draw if on equal points) then going into round 11 all these teams will be on 12-14 match points, then have to all play a weaker team except for 3Cs v Gonzaga; any results for teams on higher match points in this scenario will make it highly improbable for a team on 6 to finish in the top 2

So by splitting the league into the "Top 8" at this present time seems a very logical situation to keep a competitive edge to the league

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:56 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:07 am
The following is how many possibly pairings available for each team

6 Possible Pairings : 3Cs 2
5 Possible Pairings : Gonzaga & Ched 2
4 Possible Pairings : Shrop 1, Brad A, SoA B, WS2 & Jorvik
It does appear that 3Cs have had the easier pairings so far; the sum of the Match points scored by their opponents is only 28 (although Enniscorthy's withdrawal from weekend 3 has exacerbated this) if I have added it up correctly

Gonzaga is 33; both Shrops 1 & Brad A are 35, as are Jorvik; Ched 2 and Warks 2 both 37; SoA are 39 i.e. they have had the toughest pairings so far (having played the top 2)

So, maybe 3Cs should play both Shrops 1 and Brad A at weekend 4
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Alan Walton
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:08 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:56 am
So, maybe 3Cs should play both Shrops 1 and Brad A at weekend 4
Which I did in my permutation; I think it is best for all the top teams to play each other if possible so no team can be construde to have an advantage, which my scenario does; the only pairing which cannot happen is 3Cs v Cheddleton in this scenario, but with 6 teams to play and only 5 rounds something has to give

John Garnett
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by John Garnett » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:49 pm

I don't think the last weekend pairings should be decided before weekend 4 is played. It is possible that one of the teams currently on 7 points might lose their next two matches and one of the teams on 6 might win theirs. Why should one of the leaders then play a team on 7 points rather than a team on 10 points?

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:00 am

Division 3 North Round 7 pairings

31 Shropshire 1 - - - Gonzaga
32 3Cs 2 - - - Bradford DCA Knights A
33 Spirit of Atticus B - - - Warwickshire Select 2
34 Jorvik - - - Cheddleton 2
35 Holmes Chapel - - - Bradford DCA Knights B
36 Enniscorthy - - - Manchester Manticores 3
37 Castleford Roses - - - Ashfield-Breadsall 1
38 Manchester Manticores 2 - - - Ashfield-Breadsall 2
39 3Cs 3 - - - Shropshire 2
40 Bradford DCA Knights C - - - Manchester Manticores 4

Interesting; it appears that round 8 will be done on conclusion of round 7
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Well it is (I think) meant to be a normal Swiss now :)

There really isn't very much deep preparation done at the level of 3N so no real risks of people feeling left out there.

Ian Jamieson
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Re: Div 3 North 2017 - 18

Post by Ian Jamieson » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:41 am

If it was a normal Swiss now wouldn't Gonzaga be playing 3Cs 2? (I am not complaining - Shropshire 1 would have almost certainly had to play Gonzaga in one of the remaining rounds.)

All I will say is that it is just as well that no-one is in contention for a norm because I don't see how anyone could reproduce this year's pairings.

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