Proposed reorganisation

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:16 pm

It's difficult to find solutions, because the problem is intrinsic to the nature of the setup: multiple lower divisions feeding into one higher division creates promotion bottlenecks.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:16 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:56 pm

In Div 3 South, 2 promotion spots for 16 teams already left little room for error. 1 Spot for 12 teams seems particularly unforgiving.
Six or possibly eight teams for a play off weekend, three places from a three round Swiss perhaps. You might weight the number of play off places by the size of the combined regional third and fourth divisions.

Once, long ago, the 4NCL held a "qualification" weekend over the end May Bank Holiday weekend. I have some memory of playing Sunday evening so it may have been four rounds. I think the pairing system was some devious idea of the late Richard Furness. It was in the usual venue at the time, the Birmingham Moat House.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:35 pm

A twelve player APA division 3 South would be ideal from my point of view. (or Division 1 South, if you follow football and use Premiership and Championship for the national leagues!).

I'd like a system where the three winners went up and the three runners up the went into a playoff with the ninth placed team in division 2. That would only require one weekend at a small venue, perhaps in parallel with the annual rapidplay or one of the 4NCL congresses. But still, I understand these ideas are easier to propose than organise.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:00 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:47 am
A playoff amongst all Div3s does not seem practical. If there are 3 promotion places that means 3 x 3 teams in the playoff. Do we want triangular matches? It would also mean 2 additional weekends or using a jamboree system.
Top two from each division go into a 6 team playoff; result between the teams from the same division carried forward; 4 matches to play against the teams from the other divisions.

It's not ideal, but that could be fitted into one weekend, or, better, one 3 day bank holiday weekend.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:25 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:00 pm
It's not ideal, but that could be fitted into one weekend, or, better, one 3 day bank holiday weekend.
Choose the Spring Bank Holiday weekend and it could run in parallel to the usual 4NCL Congress. Presumably a "Midlands" venue would be needed.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Nick Burrows » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:31 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:35 pm
I'd like a system where the three winners went up and the three runners up the went into a playoff with the ninth placed team in division 2. That would only require one weekend at a small venue, perhaps in parallel with the annual rapidplay or one of the 4NCL congresses. But still, I understand these ideas are easier to propose than organise.
Good one Paul. This seems the mist straightforward to me.
It keeps many more teams interested in 4 separate divisions, and gives an extra route out from the particularly strong ones.

Mick Norris
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:32 pm

When Div 3 North started, we merged with Div 3 South for the final bank holiday weekend at Hinckley Island (it was the final 2 weekends at least one year), so that the best teams got promoted; would it be possible to use that format for the top teams?
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Alex McFarlane » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:12 pm

Some interesting ideas, but if I can play Devil's Advocate.
We may not be able to compete in all of the intended weekends. As such is it wise to design a structure which will add an additional one?
I would think ideas that would have such an extension are perhaps best considered for the following season (assuming we will have more certainty).


And an apology to Mr Thompson for mistyping his name initially.

Alan Walton
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:25 pm

I think historically before Div 3 was created, Division 2 grew to 18 teams and played as a Swiss event; then one year the bottom 6 went into Div 3 and there was a qualifying event (at Daventry) where about 20+ teams of 4 played off for the 6 other places; this is when 3Cs got our second team originally involved

Nick Grey
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:09 pm

In 22-23 some strong teams 'stuck' by 1 team in each. Players stuck in one team practical difficulties. LOOKS Good. hotels and when will help.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:54 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:12 pm
We may not be able to compete in all of the intended weekends. As such is it wise to design a structure which will add an additional one?
I understand the desire to cautious. But on the other hand if the playoff weekend has to be cancelled, the only real downside is that no one gets promoted, which would have been the case anyway. At least the extra place or places to play for have helped keep division 3s competitive until the end.

Although a bit more movement between leagues than one up seems desirable to me, my main concern is a lot of teams having nothing to play for in the last weekend. Or perhaps worse if a strong team is moving through the divisions.

Nick Grey
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:16 pm

2nd may bank holiday w/e? many will have lots to play for - not getting relegated. Why worry about new strong teams starting in division 3 and moving up.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:07 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:32 pm
When Div 3 North started, we merged with Div 3 South for the final bank holiday weekend at Hinckley Island (it was the final 2 weekends at least one year), so that the best teams got promoted; would it be possible to use that format for the top teams?
You'd surely use it for all the teams? The chance to play across the three other groups to get more variety for at least one weekend surely has to be somewhat attractive for everyone.

I've never been quite sure why it stopped actually. Travel? Too many teams in one place?

It would of course rather mess up the putative APA format but that could probably be coped with.

Mick Norris
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:50 am

Too many teams in the same place; if you remember, we had Hinckley Island full and also had to use another hotel a few miles away

I enjoyed meeting teams from the South/Midlands too; I think we were unbeaten at Hinckley Island for 2 or 3 seasons because despite finishing bottom of Div 3N we were stronger than teams at the bottom of Div 3S
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Nick Burrows
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Re: Proposed reorganisation

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:26 am

Would it not be a good idea to start in say September rather than the usual November, then if a weekend or 2 has to be cancelled over the winter it will be no problem to finish the season?

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