English Chess Forum

There have been documents circulated about this which I can post tomorrow if required

The 2019-20 season would be abandoned

The opportunity would be taken to eventually move to Divisions 1 and 2 being 12 team APAs at a central venue

Division 3 would be split into North, Central and South ideally also as 12 team APAs

Division 4 would be a Swiss with again the North, Central and South split

If there weren't enough teams to make this work in a specific region e.g. in the North, that would have a Division 3 played as a Swiss as at present

Sounds sensible

Mick Norris wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:30 pm

Division 3 would be split into North, Central and South ideally also as 12 team APAs

Division 4 would be a Swiss with again the North, Central and South split

How promotion and relegation would work becomes a key question.

Mick Norris wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:30 pm

There have been documents circulated about this which I can post tomorrow if required

If the documents are not confidential, please do post them.

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:36 pm

Mick Norris wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:30 pm

Division 3 would be split into North, Central and South ideally also as 12 team APAs

Division 4 would be a Swiss with again the North, Central and South split

How promotion and relegation would work becomes a key question.

Here's how it will work:-

Season 2019-20 Abandoned

Season 2021-22 Eleven rounds over five weekends (as previous)

a) The 32 teams from Division One & Two in 2019/20 will play in a combined Swiss tournament
b) All the remaining teams from Division Three (South), Division Three (North) and Division Four (North) will play in Swiss tournaments based in South, Central and North styled as Division Threes.

Season 2022/23

a) The teams finishing in 1st-12th position from the combined Swiss in 2021-2 will form a new all-play-all Division One
b) The teams finishing in 13th-24th position from the combined Swiss in 2021-22 will form a new all-play-all Division Two
c) The teams finishing in 25th-32nd from the combined Swiss in 2021-22 will be relegated into one of the Third Divisions.
d) Three 3rd Division all-play-all of 12 teams (South, Central & North) will be formed made up of the relegated teams as above together with the top scoring teams from 2021-22 Swiss.
e) Any remaining teams will play in regional Division Fours Swiss competitions.

There's a lot more - however I hope that summary gives indication of the new proposed structure and how it is to be reached.

3 swiss (South, Central & North) in 2021-22.

Division Three

I think the proposed changes make perfect sense for divisions 1 and 2. I don't think there is an easy solution for how to manage divisions 3 and 4 and only time will tell how successful these proposals will be, but I see no reason not to give it a try. One thing I would be interested in (and apologies if I have missed it) is the plan to run the North, South and Midlands weekends in parallel? If they were spread over separate weekends it would mean the 4NCL taking up a huge proportion of the calendar.

Mostly very sensible (of course!).

I'm slightly dubious if:
1) There's actually 12 genuinely 'Northern' teams and
2) If there are, whether ~90% of the players haven't already played against each other a huge amount in the Yorkshire league.
(Which contains a reasonable proportion of Manchester Manticore's players along with basically all the Yorkshire based ones.).

Matthew's worry about the calendar could be an issue as well.

I'd assume North, Central & South would be run in parallel, subject as previously to hotel availability on the selected dates

Div 3 North had 16 teams; might lose both Shropshire teams to Central, and both J'Adoube too; there's then the question of where is most convenient for Manx Liberty, depending on where the hotel locations are in both the North and Central

On the other hand, there's unlikely to be a Div 4 North, so entering Div 3 North is the faster route to promotion to Div 2 as at present, and the issue of whether the Northern teams in Div 2 will manage to stay up in the new structure

4NCL will need to look at the tie break rules for 2021-2. The current rules are designed to pick winners. In splitting swiss ties nearer the mid point, it would be desireable to weight things more by how hard the draw had been for each tied team.

There is also case for having modified pairings, perhaps only for later rounds, e.g. something like 2nd quarter v 3rd quarter might focus on the divisional split better.

I think the proposals are generally good. One thing I don't like is the limited promotion places from Division 3 to Division 2, compared to any other pair of divisions, which the 4NCL invites comments on.

I wonder about a playoff between the top teams in all three regional division 3s. That way, if the strongest division 3 teams are all in one division, they'll get the promotion places. If one of the division 3s is weaker than the others, they won't get promoted.

If there was such a playoff, you could then also increase the number of teams being relegated from Division 2 to, say, 4, to make it slightly less difficult to get promoted from Division 3.

Ian Thompson wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:10 am

I wonder about a playoff between the top teams in all three regional division 3s.

That sounds expensive.

I'd better start by saying that these are my personal views and in no way represent those of the 4NCL!

With regard to the suggestions made by Ian Thomson.

Division 3 has used a 'decelerated swiss' for a few seasons to keep the interest in promotion going into the final weekend. In my opinion it worked quite well (nothing is perfect). Having said that, I would be very wary of using that system in the coming season. Obviously the hope is to have 11 rounds but a resurgence of the disease, not to mention potential venue problems could shorten the season, therefore a normal swiss is probably the best option.

A playoff amongst all Div3s does not seem practical. If there are 3 promotion places that means 3 x 3 teams in the playoff. Do we want triangular matches? It would also mean 2 additional weekends or using a jamboree system.

Ian Thompson wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:10 am

I think the proposals are generally good. One thing I don't like is the limited promotion places from Division 3 to Division 2, compared to any other pair of divisions, which the 4NCL invites comments on.

I agree with both these points - generally it looks fantastic.

In Div 3 South, 2 promotion spots for 16 teams already left little room for error. 1 Spot for 12 teams seems particularly unforgiving.
It could lead to most teams having little to play for.
It could lead to a bottle neck with several strong teams 'stuck'. Especially if there are strong new teams formed for the coming season.

I understand Alexes point about the practical difficulties. There may be no solution, but if somebody can find one (Jack? ) i will personally send them a gold star for their lapel.