4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:31 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:10 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:11 am
I was told previously Monday at the latest, though I suppose it could now be delayed.
My mistake. I was told Wed at the latest. :oops:
:shock:

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:49 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:31 am
:shock:
To try and avoid teams dropping out after the draw is published.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:11 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:45 am

All but three teams now have player lists showing on the site.
All complete now.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:15 pm

Pairing question:

If 2 teams are on the same matchpoints, is the higher seed always upfloated? Or if that team was upfloated in the previous round, is the upfloating "shared"?

Richard Bates
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:39 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:15 pm
Pairing question:

If 2 teams are on the same matchpoints, is the higher seed always upfloated? Or if that team was upfloated in the previous round, is the upfloating "shared"?
Won’t they be using the Olympiad pairing system? (which uses game points as the initial “seeding” criteria) Avoids most of the difficulties about judging the validity of seeding (after round 1)

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:02 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:39 pm
Won’t they be using the Olympiad pairing system? (which uses game points as the initial “seeding” criteria) Avoids most of the difficulties about judging the validity of seeding (after round 1)
I asked the arbiter prior to round 1. He said that seedings are still used to rank teams on the same match points for subsequent rounds.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:18 am

It seems to be generally accepted and understood that ECF grades are approximately 100 points higher than Fide ratings. Therefore a rule amendment converting them into a common scale would make a lot of sense:

a) It would make seedings more accurate
b) It would make the published team averages reliable and prevent having to decode them.
c) It would reduce the opportunity for captains to manipulate board order. As it stands, there is an effective "200 point rule" if a player with a converted ECF grade is played above a player with a Fide rating 99 points higher.

What are the arguments in favour of status quo?

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:54 am

The current system used for seeding appears to assess squad strength based solely on the list of players currently registered for the coming season. This can be massively misrepresentative. For example, in Div 3 South this season, Crowthorne who have consistently been one of the very best teams in the league were seeded 18th. This led to a round 1 clash between 2 of the strongest squads, which was somewhat of an anti-climax for the season.
A greater emphasis on demonstrated strength from prior seasons would prevent this scenario.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:05 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:18 am

What are the arguments in favour of status quo?
The current system is that match captains and squad managers can opt at the start of the season to use ECF ratings instead of FIDE ones on a player by player basis. A reason for this is that FIDE ratings can be several hundred points adrift from current strength. That's mostly juniors whose improvement has outpaced their FIDE rating but also returning veterans whose rating of twenty years ago might be reinstated.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:43 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:05 pm
The current system is that match captains and squad managers can opt at the start of the season to use ECF ratings instead of FIDE ones on a player by player basis. A reason for this is that FIDE ratings can be several hundred points adrift from current strength. That's mostly juniors whose improvement has outpaced their FIDE rating but also returning veterans whose rating of twenty years ago might be reinstated.
Yes, I think this is a good rule. I meant simply to suggest that when ECF ratings are used, 100 points are deducted to give a player their "4ncl rating". Rather than having parallel rating scales that are close enough to appear the same, but cause some confusion (perhaps just to me!).

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 am

I was amused to see that the French league has reverted to the 16 team, 2 pool format. I vaguely recall that they dropped the format shortly after the 4NCL adopted it so it seemed ironic that they have now reinstated it now that we have (thankfully) are returning to the 12 team all-play-all.

NickFaulks
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:48 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:43 pm
Rather than having parallel rating scales that are close enough to appear the same, but cause some confusion (perhaps just to me!).
Not just you, it causes widespread confusion and, if experience in the US is any guide, will continue to do so until the end of time.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Rhys Cumming
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Rhys Cumming » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:04 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 am
I was amused to see that the French league has reverted to the 16 team, 2 pool format. I vaguely recall that they dropped the format shortly after the 4NCL adopted it so it seemed ironic that they have now reinstated it now that we have (thankfully) are returning to the 12 team all-play-all.
Seemingly I am in the previously silent minority(?) who was very disappointed to see us moving back to 12 team APAs. I was slightly disappointed there wasn't more consultation on this (although understandable given the state of the world at the time): apparently there were captains who had been complaining for years; maybe those of us who were keen on the system needed to be more vocal in our lack of complaining!

I can see the benefit for Div 1 where the difference between the top teams and the 16th is significant but for Divs 2 and 3 I think the system worked excellently.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:35 pm

I was more under the impression that the "pool" system ONLY made sense in division 1 where teams were somewhat more unbalanced. In div2 and 3 where it was so closely matched almost any side could realistically hope for promotion the splitting of pools became an awful lottery and reduced what should be an entirely skill based game to a farce when mid placed teams were going to the top of the promotion pool by luck of losing their losses and only retaining wins.
All play all is by far the best system, no rewarding mediocrity with second chances, the most consistent team earns their championship and none of their rivals can say they were denied the opportunity to stop them.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Rhys Cumming
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Re: 4NCL Rules 2021 - 22

Post by Rhys Cumming » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:24 pm

It depends what you want from a division though (and this applies to sport in general). If the main desire is that the best team wins and the worst teams get relegated then clearly it's hard to beat an APA, but there's a reason that a lot of leagues across various sports opt for playoffs. The main issue with an APA in the 4NCL context, is it becomes very dull for any mid-table team: in a pool system pretty much every match matters to some extent and is therefore much more interesting to play in. It does sometimes lead to teams being a bit more unlucky than others but I think in reality there were very few (if any?) cases where teams could genuinely complain at the end of the season that the result was a true injustice.

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