Female Player Rule

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Sean Hewitt

Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:14 pm

Ola Winfridsson wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:You posted somewhere else (I think) about games against unrated players being rated. This was passed by the FIDE General Assembly but then vetoed by the Presidential Board (even though, I understand, that they don't have the authority to do this). Therefore games against unrated players will not be rated.
Just out of curiosity, how did they propose to do it? Similar to the way ungraded players are treated in the ECF system, or some other way?
The proposal (I believe) was that if a player secured a part rating in an event (so, played at least 3 rated opponents and scored at least 1 point) then that part rating would be used to rate the game for the rated opponent.

Richard Bates
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:36 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Ola Winfridsson wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:You posted somewhere else (I think) about games against unrated players being rated. This was passed by the FIDE General Assembly but then vetoed by the Presidential Board (even though, I understand, that they don't have the authority to do this). Therefore games against unrated players will not be rated.
Just out of curiosity, how did they propose to do it? Similar to the way ungraded players are treated in the ECF system, or some other way?
The proposal (I believe) was that if a player secured a part rating in an event (so, played at least 3 rated opponents and scored at least 1 point) then that part rating would be used to rate the game for the rated opponent.
You only have to play 3 for a part-rating these days? Not that gaining a rating means much anymore.

Doesn't it seem somewhat dubious to rate a game, where the result of the game is a contributing factor towards the expected score? 1pt from a 3 game part rating must make quite a significant difference, creating a situation where, dependent on the result of the game to be rated, one could find themselves either being rated as losing against an extremely strong player, or winning against a rather weak one. Without knowing in advance what impact the 3 different results would have.

Even worse one could effectively be in a position where the only rating implications of a game are neutral or negative. Playing an unrated opponent who has scored 0/2 against rated opponents, one is then in a situation where a win (or a draw) will leave their opponent short of the required part-rating. So the game is only rated on a loss, and is therefore only rated if the player loses points. No thanks.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:27 pm

Incidentally, this is already the way games against unrated players are rated - but only in all-play-all tournaments. CCF's "get me a rating" tournaments make use of this fact to get several players ratings simultaneously.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:41 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:You posted somewhere else (I think) about games against unrated players being rated. This was passed by the FIDE General Assembly but then vetoed by the Presidential Board (even though, I understand, that they don't have the authority to do this). Therefore games against unrated players will not be rated.
I usually manage to spot FIDE's arbitrary rule changes. I must have missed the non-change.

This is what it says

http://www.arbitriscacchi.com/regolamenti/B02.pdf
6.4 In a Swiss or team event:
6.41 For an unrated player’s performance to count he must play at least three games against rated
opponents; score at least 1 point; and the rating based on the tournament result at its
conclusion be above the rating floor.
6.42 For rated players, only games against rated opponents are counted
On the face of it, there wasn't any need to change the way the 4NCL ratings were done from last year (when they were reported separately for each weekend). Did FIDE anticipate the rating (for rated) of rated v unrated, change the submission rules and then not change them back?

Sean Hewitt

Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: On the face of it, there wasn't any need to change the way the 4NCL ratings were done from last year (when they were reported separately for each weekend). Did FIDE anticipate the rating (for rated) of rated v unrated, change the submission rules and then not change them back?
Actually, they did have to change the way they rated the event. When the 4NCL rated the event previously period by period they did not submit games by unrated players at the same time. These games were amalgamated and submitted to FIDE together with the last period to ensure that unrated players got their best chance of securing a part rating. This practice was outlawed in the summer. Now, either all results go in period by period (and that includes unrated players) or they all go in at the end of the season.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:29 pm

Hi Mathew,

No problem mate, have planned twice to make the trip down to do
a Corner on the event but other things happened.

(but you owe me a pint cos I'm right. ;) However I'll buy you one if tou sac
your Queen when I'm down there. Easy to do, these guys are not very good. )

Just having a rant and rave. Not quite finished yet.

Right where was I before my labtop batteries packed up.

(I'm lying in bed typing this with a sever dose of man flu. When the batteries
pack up my son, who does the voices of chess players, re-charges
the thing for me whilst I sleep).

I call it the ENL because calling it the 4NCL is not on because Scotland
does not send a team. I am going to try and rectify this.

I call it the ENL because European players who do not live here are imported in
from Europe. It is in effect The European National League. (ENL).

We are bringing in non British players because, so I'm told it, it gives
British players a chance to improve their ratings and a chance to get norms.

Boost Ratings:
This is unfair and unkind to our European cousins.
To look upon them as a means of raising one's grade is not Euro-friendly.
They are fellow chess players, they have feelings.

Norms:
Norms should not be awarded at team evernts.
If a player needs a ½ pt. for a norm then he will 'sod the team and grab the norm'.

I want the female rule abolished. Let them get a place in the team because they
are good chess players and some not some lunatic rule.
Women can play chess just as well as men this rule is patronizing and condescending.

I not only want this event ungraded. I want them all ungraded.
I want the whole grading system abolished. (so apparently does the system itself)

The numbers are having a severe detrimental effect on our game.

Look at the Catch 22 situation the organisers of chess events and chess clubs
found themselves in recently in that 'other thread.'

The give up their spare chess study time to organise and run chess.
Consequently their grades falls.
They are then told because their grade are so low they cannot do the job anymore.
Catch 22.

The numbers are stopping young promising British players from playing at the
higher boards.

(And Mathew can now only play two players in Scotland) ;)

So what do I want the grades replaced with....

....welll that is something for you to discuss at the next AGM.

CJ is a clever lad, he will think of something.

And I do not like CHESS when it blanket covers the 4NCL.

Right I'm off to play some net blitz before my batteris pack up.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:25 am

"Please correct me if I am wrong

The 4NCL isn't an English league specifically, it is the Four Nations Chess League (England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland). "

Guernsey has replaced Scotland!
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

Ola Winfridsson
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Ola Winfridsson » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:12 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:I call it the ENL because European players who do not live here are imported in
from Europe. It is in effect The European National League. (ENL).
Err, you mean just like the Euro Spanish Team Championships, the Euro Bundesliga, and the Euro French League to name bit a few of the many national team championships whose standards are improved by bringing in foreign players, to the same or a far greater extent than the teams in the 4NCL.

I'm sorry, Geoff, but you're increasingly sounding like sour grapes.

Speaking as a foreigner who's lived in the UK for 10 years now, I've always greatly enjoyed 4NCL (9th season and counting). It's a great team event, and I dare say that the slant you put on it is more or less completely out of kilter with reality.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:12 am

Hi Ola

Let me see:

I say:

"European players who do not live here..."

and you say:

"Speaking as a foreigner who's lived in the UK for 10 years now..."

Looks like we are both out of kilter.

Hi Keven.

Simple. So we call it the 4N + Guernsey CL.

Next?

Ola Winfridsson
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Ola Winfridsson » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am

Geoff: Yes, but as a foreigner I wasn't exactly dragged kicking and screaming to play in the 4NCL before I had decided to settle here, nor are the visiting ones as far as I can see. On the contrary, not only pros come to play, but a number of foreign amateurs combine visits to this country with matches in the 4NCL.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:49 am

Hi Ola

Yes so that hardly makes the 'Four Nations' (plus Guernsey) does it.

It makes it the European + Guernsey National League. The EGNL.

So two choices.

We either stop inviting them (ban is such a terminal word) and send their appearance
fees to British players (yourself as a resident is classed as British).

Or we re-name the entire tourament.

New Rule 1.ab. Norms:

If a player in a team gets a norm then the whole team should get one.

Have posted request for Scottish players to form own team and join league.

http://scotchess.s4.bizhat.com/scotches ... c1365.html

No replies as yet too early.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:04 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote: Have posted request for Scottish players to form own team and join league.

http://scotchess.s4.bizhat.com/scotches ... c1365.html

No replies as yet too early.
You should probably add to your notice that, by starting in Division 3 North (new for next season), they couldn't complain about travelling to the south of England.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:28 pm

Hi Alex.

Good point. Will do. Cheers.

Hmmm....

May have slight trouble as some of the good lads may not want to drop.

Ah well all the more room for the other lads.

(Unless can get new rule that new teams start off in div I) ;)

Ola Winfridsson
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Ola Winfridsson » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:47 pm

Hi again, Geoff!
As the name 4NCL implies, it's open for teams from the England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The fact that so far no Scottish teams have entered doesn't make it worthy of the name ENCL (+ Guernsey). And since Guernsey is a crown dependency and a member of the British-Irish council I can live with teams from there, too!

As for 'foreign foreigners' (as opposed to 'British foreigners' like myself ...), they're just enriching the league by helping to elevate standards. They're not crowding out domestic players, which I believe is proved by the expansion of the league in the noughties.

Personally I've always advocated a regionalization of the lower division(s) of the 4NCL because I'm convinced that that would stimulate interest and participation even further. So the step of creating a Northern 4NCL is certainly to be applauded.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Female Player Rule

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:34 pm

Hi Ola,

A previous post on the Scottish board attracted little interest.

I'll rattle their cages up here (I'm good at that) ;) and see if I can get
yes's or no's (with reasons).

But they have their own SNCL it's run very well and well supported
and I fear the dates might clash.

But I'll see what happens.

Does div III get FIDE ratings?

(a yes or no answer will suffice don't link me to the rules).

Give me a carrot to dangle, something I can work with.

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