English Chess Forum

I have been asked by a friend about what he needs for a GM norm from 4NCL24-25 in rounds 9&10 or round 9or10.

Many moons ago when I was Chairman of the Qualification Commission (1990-1994) and the Titles & Ratings Committee (1994-2002/3) I seem to recall that we had some special regulations for leagues, e.g. start date covered a league in its entirety but my memory does not run to the precise details (22 years is long ago).

The player needs confirmation of:
- opponent's ratings count by date of start of 24-25 League or date of game?
- what stipulation of number of nationalities applies to 4NCL?
- he is relying on me but I need help! So, help please!

1. Date of game See 1.1.4 (That also applies to titles of opponents.
2. You haven't said what nationality the player is. If ENG then this is a national championship so nationality of opponents is less significant. If IRE then the normal nationality conditions apply. See 1.4.3 - 1.4.5

1.1.4 In tournaments which last longer than 30 days, the opponents’ ratings and titles used shall be those applying when the games were played.
1.4.3d Swiss System tournaments in which participants include in every round at least 20 FIDE rated players, not from the host federation, from at least 3 different federations, at least 10 of whom hold GM, IM, WGM or WIM titles.
For this purpose, players will be counted only if they miss at most one round (excluding pairing allocated byes). Otherwise, 1.4.4 applies.
1.4.4 A maximum of 3/5 of the opponents may come from the applicant’s federation and a maximum of 2/3 of the opponents from one federation. For exact numbers see the Annex.
Opponents shall be calculated using rounding up (minimum) to the next whole number, to the next lower number (maximum).
1.4.5 Titles of opponents
At least 50% of the opponents shall be title-holders (TH) as in 0.3, excluding CM and WCM.
For a GM norm at least 1/3 with a minimum 3 of the opponents must be GMs.
For an IM norm at least 1/3 with a minimum 3 of the opponents must be IMs or GMs.
For a WGM norm at least 1/3 with a minimum 3 of the opponents must be WGMs, IMs or GMs.
For a WIM norm at least 1/3 with a minimum 3 of the opponents must be WIMs, WGMs, IMs or GMs.

I think that answers everything.

Alex McFarlane wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 06, 2025 8:56 pm

2. You haven't said what nationality the player is. If ENG then this is a national championship so nationality of opponents is less significant. If IRE then the normal nationality conditions apply. See 1.4.3 - 1.4.5

I seem to recall this applied to Desmond Tan of Australia when he was studying in Scotland. His attempted norm in the 4NCL contained too many English players.

Alex & Roger: Thanks for all that.

The player concerned is ENG. I am left with the odd question or two, to be certain of my advice.

With 3 GMs so far, it must be on the basis of 9 rounds, or, if 10, a 4th GM would be required (1.4.5)
BUT
In the 3rd & 4th tables in the Annex it is stated: Max 5 from own Fed (5/9), so if I understand correctly this means: 1.4.4 He already has 6 ENG, so a 4th GM is needed who must be from some other federation so that he fits within the limit 6/10 or 6/11 (6/9 is too many ENG). I think that applies to 4NCL.

Kevin O'Connell wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 07, 2025 4:21 pm

BUT
In the 3rd & 4th tables in the Annex it is stated: Max 5 from own Fed (5/9), so if I understand correctly this means: 1.4.4 He already has 6 ENG, so a 4th GM is needed who must be from some other federation so that he fits within the limit 6/10 or 6/11 (6/9 is too many ENG). I think that applies to 4NCL.

Does not the national championship exemption apply? Thus even if every opponent player is ENG, it still qualifies. It may not be unknown for a national league to ban foreigners.

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 07, 2025 8:55 am

Alex McFarlane wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 06, 2025 8:56 pm

2. You haven't said what nationality the player is. If ENG then this is a national championship so nationality of opponents is less significant. If IRE then the normal nationality conditions apply. See 1.4.3 - 1.4.5

I seem to recall this applied to Desmond Tan of Australia when he was studying in Scotland. His attempted norm in the 4NCL contained too many English players.

I presume you mean Justin Tan, since Desmond is definitely English

But to the general query, why don't you just email the organizers, they will give you the answer; normally the request in advance enquiries for norms

Kevin O'Connell wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 07, 2025 4:21 pm

Alex & Roger: Thanks for all that.

The player concerned is ENG. I am left with the odd question or two, to be certain of my advice.

With 3 GMs so far, it must be on the basis of 9 rounds, or, if 10, a 4th GM would be required (1.4.5)
BUT
In the 3rd & 4th tables in the Annex it is stated: Max 5 from own Fed (5/9), so if I understand correctly this means: 1.4.4 He already has 6 ENG, so a 4th GM is needed who must be from some other federation so that he fits within the limit 6/10 or 6/11 (6/9 is too many ENG). I think that applies to 4NCL.

Specifically in the 4NCL, if he's ENG on the FIDE rating list then none of the nationality criteria matter. As Justin Tan and his captain at the time found to their cost, it does matter if the player isn't English.

Are there any ENG norm candidates in this weekend's 4NCL?

Leonard Barden wrote: ↑

Sat May 03, 2025 9:25 am

Are there any ENG norm candidates in this weekend's 4NCL?

A few of my English players have mathematical but not very practical chances, especially having just viewed today's pairings. For Cheddleton, Richard Pert needs a win (resting today) and Zoe Varney has chances.

Thanks, that's helpful.

Leonard Barden wrote: ↑

Sat May 03, 2025 1:37 pm

Thanks, that's helpful.

If I hear of any others, I will let you know. There are some non English norm possibilities, Sam Chow & Svyatoslav for example.

Is it right that Freddie Gordon passed 2400 at the last 4NCL weekend and so achieved the IM title at 14? Who is the youngest ever British IM? I don't know the answer.

Leonard Barden wrote: ↑

Sat May 03, 2025 6:31 pm

Is it right that Freddie Gordon passed 2400 at the last 4NCL weekend and so achieved the IM title at 14? Who is the youngest ever British IM? I don't know the answer.

According to chessgames.com, David Howell was 13 years, 2 months and 22 days when he got the IM title. I haven't checked any others (Short and McShane seem the only other likely candidates).

Edit: It seems that Luke McShane was also 13 years and 2 months old when he got the IM title.
https://theweekinchess.com/html/twic125.html#IM

The date of the Week in Chess article is the 31st March, 1997, which was a Monday. Luke's birthday is the 7th January, so if he got his IM title on Easter Sunday (30th March, 1997) then he was 13 years, 2 months and 23 days old!
https://www.calendarr.com/united-kingdo ... arch-1997/

However... due to leap years and what-not, Luke was actually 4831 days old on the 30th March, 1997:
https://www.timeanddate.com/date/durati ... 03&y2=1997

And David was also 4831 days old on the 5th February, 2004 (see https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... .gdnsport3 for that date):
https://www.timeanddate.com/date/durati ... 02&y2=2004

Thanks, a dead heat then. Short only got his first IM norm at the 1979 British Championship, when he was already 14.

Leonard Barden wrote: ↑

Sat May 03, 2025 6:54 pm

Thanks, a dead heat then. Short only got his first IM norm at the 1979 British Championship, when he was already 14.

Yes, both 4831 days old (see my much modified post above). Unless Luke got his norm on the day before Easter Sunday (I think it mentioned penultimate round somewhere).