4NCL team names

[John Saunders]

If club officials cannot take their own teams seriously, why should sponsors?

Also if the 4NCL were to introduce a naming convention, what should it say? Should all the team names be in English?

If so I think the 4NCL should declare itself the ECFL or 1NCL

John,

All of your arguments seem to be concerned about sponsors not being attracted by certain names. Surely it's down to the club/team to decide for themselves if they want to choose a name that might potentially put off a sponsor. As crazy as this might sound to you, there are actually people out there who enjoy the game and would play for free, not needing any form of financial incentive. To mute these players from choosing a name for themselves because it's an inconvenience to you and Leonard when writing articles sounds very condescending to me.

I've already been at great pains to say that I'm NOT in favour of the 4NCL bringing in legislation regarding names but you evidently can't be bothered to go back and read what I've actually written and would prefer to call me names.

[Richard Thursby]

Of course, Man United don't play in Manchester

That would explain why none(ish) of their fans come from there.

Biggest myth in football

It's in Greater Manchester but not the City of Manchester (according to Wikipedia). On a similar note, as one travels west(ish) along Fulham Road and crosses the borough boundary between Kensington and Chelsea and Hammersmith and Fulham, what's almost the first thing you reach? Stamford Bridge football ground, home of Chelsea Football Club.

If club officials cannot take their own teams seriously, why should sponsors?

Also if the 4NCL were to introduce a naming convention, what should it say? Should all the team names be in English?

If so I think the 4NCL should declare itself the ECFL or 1NCL

How about UKCL, or maybe UK&ROICL?

[Gareth Harley-Yeo]

If so I think the 4NCL should declare itself the ECFL or 1NCL

John,

All of your arguments seem to be concerned about sponsors not being attracted by certain names. Surely it's down to the club/team to decide for themselves if they want to choose a name that might potentially put off a sponsor. As crazy as this might sound to you, there are actually people out there who enjoy the game and would play for free, not needing any form of financial incentive. To mute these players from choosing a name for themselves because it's an inconvenience to you and Leonard when writing articles sounds very condescending to me.

I've already been at great pains to say that I'm NOT in favour of the 4NCL bringing in legislation regarding names but you evidently can't be bothered to go back and read what I've actually written and would prefer to call me names.

Please show me in the above where I've called you a name of any kind? I've merely stated it's the prerogative of the team to name their side anything that they so choose (within reason). To suggest a team name should include a well known place name when the players come from all parts of the UK, and indeed the world seems rather ridiculous. If The Molinari company sponsored a team, and requested it be named 'Sambuca' would it then be ok?

The 4NCL is not a professional league, it's bad enough that teams without sponsors are held to ransom by women and juniors (not that I have any issue with my own squad), without taking on further restrictions. This thread smacks of journos whining that they have to explain team names. - If this is the extent of your life's troubles then you should count yourselves very lucky men.

[John Saunders]

Gareth

"Condescending" is a negative adjective, is it not? You continue to accuse me of something that I have not suggested, namely a 4NCL rule change, and that my motive for making these suggestions is self-interest, which is frankly absurd and a complete misrepresentation of what I have actually written. If you take the trouble to read what I've written, you will realise that I've not made any suggestion that will impinge on your freedom to name your team anything you like or have fun or anything else.

[Mick Norris]

Of course, Man United don't play in Manchester

It's in Greater Manchester but not the City of Manchester (according to Wikipedia).

According to Alex, its in Lancashire, as Greater Manchester doesn't exist, although he may have moved it to Cheshire for all I know!

Like the cricket ground of the same name, it's in Trafford, which indeed isn't in the city of Manchester

[benedgell]

Taking Pride and Prejudice as an example, the 8 players in their team at the last weekend reside in various parts of the UK, France, and Norway, and the team plays at various venues around England. So I'm not really sure how including a town or city in their team name, as Leonard's article suggests, would make much sense.

The same could be equally said for a large number of teams in 4ncl.

I'm not especially knowledgable on foreign leagues, but in the Bundesliga am I right in saying that there are individual matches played at club's home venues, rather then all teams playing in one central hotel like the 4ncl? So Bremen have players from a variety of places, but play at the Bremen football stadium, which explains the name.

Frankly, it just strikes me as moaning for moaning's sake, and barring a name that's offensive or too long, teams should be allowed to name their teams as they choose.

[benedgell]

I do sympathise with Leonard. I've long hated many of the 4NCL team names for all the reasons he states, plus their general incomprehensibility. Plus all those tedious abbreviations which have to be explained time and time again in print. In journalism it is standard practice to give the full form of an abbreviation once in a given article/issue, so in a magazine I would write "English Chess Federation (ECF)" and thereafter just use the abbreviation. Perfectly OK for things like ECF or FIDE but I got fed up having to explain all the abbreviations of 4NCL teams, filling up valuable space and utterly ruining the flow of an article. The basic point is that, if a name has to be explained to a third party, then it is probably not a very sensible choice of name.

Of course, if all the names were changed to something more media-friendly overnight, it doesn't mean sponsors would suddenly coming flocking round and lavish their cash on us. But it would be small step in the right direction and it would also be less off-putting to individual 'newby' chessplayers who wouldn't need all the in-jokes and jargon terms explained.

I'm not sure it's necessary to explain the abreviations of each 4ncl team. Will all due respect, isn't it just as likely that people would wonder why, for example, there is 'Grantham' at the end of Pandora's Box Grantham, or wonder what Rhyfelwyr Essyllwg means in English, as wonder what the 'AD' stands for in The ADs.

I'd say that the 4ncl is by and large an amateur league. I assume Guildford and Betsson.com have sponsorship to an extent, and there are obviously benefactors for P&P and WGHK, but otherwise, do teams really want sponsorship? If you've got a group of people who like socialising with their teammates, then bringing in sponsorship would just mean replacing some of these people with titled players who are there purely because of the money.

I'm not deriding professional players, but it seems to me that a lot of teams are quite happy with being an amateur team, and as such see no reason to have names that might give an impression of professionalism in order to potentially attract sponsorship.

[John Saunders]

Frankly, it just strikes me as moaning for moaning's sake, and barring a name that's offensive or too long, teams should be allowed to name their teams as they choose.

For heaven's sake, I agree with you and have already said so. You chopped off the bit of my earlier message that said...

None of the above should be interpreted as an attack on the 4NCL, nor am I suggesting that the league should legislate to insist on a standard name pattern. The less rules the better. But team managers should think carefully when naming their teams and perhaps seek a bit of advice (from the league or elsewhere) before doing so.

Is that not crystal clear? Just a bit of friendly advice. The only thing I can find contentious with the above is that I should have written "fewer" and not "less". I stand by the rest of it. Now can we move on from this tiresome storm in a teacup...

[Mike Truran]

I didn't like to mention a grammatical error in one so erudite......

As you infer, this one has probably run it's course.

Just joking (twice) in the second sentence, lest anybody start a new debate about my own grammatical failings; and yes, "start" is a subjunctive for those who care about these things.

By the way, is it all right to start a clause following a semi-colon with "and"?

[Carl Hibbard]

Now can we move on from this tiresome storm in a teacup...

Yes please everyone, it is time for something new!

[benedgell]

Frankly, it just strikes me as moaning for moaning's sake, and barring a name that's offensive or too long, teams should be allowed to name their teams as they choose.

For heaven's sake, I agree with you and have already said so. You chopped off the bit of my earlier message that said...

None of the above should be interpreted as an attack on the 4NCL, nor am I suggesting that the league should legislate to insist on a standard name pattern. The less rules the better. But team managers should think carefully when naming their teams and perhaps seek a bit of advice (from the league or elsewhere) before doing so.

Is that not crystal clear? Just a bit of friendly advice. The only thing I can find contentious with the above is that I should have written "fewer" and not "less". I stand by the rest of it. Now can we move on from this tiresome storm in a teacup...

My first post was regarding Leonard's article. My second was in reply to your earlier posts.

[Joey Stewart]

It is quite amusing that this topic has come up, as I have been petitioning the Bristol players to try and get us to have a more fearsome sounding name in time for our promotion to division 1 (yes, you might try and put them down but they will go up!!).
Bristol Badasses was my name of choice, but I seemed to be met with very little support on that name so I am back the drawing board for the time being.

[John Saunders]

I didn't like to mention a grammatical error in one so erudite......

As you infer, this one has probably run it's course.

Just joking (twice) in the second sentence, lest anybody start a new debate about my own grammatical failings; and yes, "start" is a subjunctive for those who care about these things.

By the way, is it all right to start a clause following a semi-colon with "and"?

"Et tu, Truran? Thus die Saunders"

I'm not falling for that one, Mike. I would hesitate before giving any advice whatsoever about grammar on this forum, however tentative or non-judgmental, because (a) I am not an expert and because (b) someone will inevitably pipe up saying 'Grammar fascist Saunders says we mustn't split infinitives, who does he think he is?, why shouldn't we be allowed to have a bit of fun with English...' etc, etc. I am going outside. I may be some time...

[Mike Truran]

1. Split infinitives.

A Victorian affectation.

2. Bristol Basilisks.

In European bestiaries and legends, a basilisk, from the Greek βασιλίσκος basilískos, "little king", is a legendary reptile reputed to be king of serpents and said to have the power to cause death with a single glance.

That should do the trick in a complicated middle game.

[Alex Holowczak]

According to Alex, its in Lancashire, as Greater Manchester doesn't exist

Greater Manchester does exist. It just isn't a county.