Northern League Round 8

[Alex Holowczak]

Notts & Derbyshire teams would be good.

Remember, Notts acrimoniously split from the 4NCL last year...

[Alan Walton]

A minimum of 16pts will be required to get promotion to division 2 so it is possible that no Northern league team will make it even if the optimum scores above are achieved.

What did you base this assumption on, last year 15pts got you promoted

[Andrew Wainwright]

A minimum of 16pts will be required to get promotion to division 2 so it is possible that no Northern league team will make it even if the optimum scores above are achieved.

Don't count on it if my Bradford squad has anything to say about it

[Roger de Coverly]

However the number of teams this year has increased from 32 to 44, and the greater the number of teams normally means that more points are required.

It remains to be seen how the Northern teams will fare in the combined weekend. If none of them make the top 4, will there be an opinion from the North that the divisions shouldn't have been merged?. If two make the top four, teams missing out on promotion could point to the easier matches that the top Northern teams presumably have had.

[Mick Norris]

It will partly depend on the strength of the teams that the Northern League get to Hinckley Island - there have been notable variations this year, even from Saturday to Sunday let alone between weekends

The Northern League matches have been almost all closely fought in practice, so I don't think any could have said to have had an easy ride

[Roger de Coverly]

The Northern League matches have been almost all closely fought in practice, so I don't think any could have said to have had an easy ride

I compared the average ratings of the opposition of the two leaders, Bradford 1 and Wessex 2.

Bradford played teams averaging 1813, 1942, 1973, 2056 , 2017 and 1964 - average 1961
Wessex 2010, 2002, 1828, 1797, 1973, 2001 - average 1935.

Wessex lost in round 2, so had Swiss gambit (easier) pairings in round 3,4,5 and 6.

Braille were early leaders, their opposition 1893, 2086, 1939, 2014, 2093, 2174 - average 2033

Perhaps there's not so much to choose and it depends on the pairings.

[Mick Norris]

Roger

You are assuming the ratings fairly reflect the strength of the players

Spirit of Atticus are underrated apart from at the top, many teams have players with ECF grades only, the FIDE converted figures may be misleading

Quite a few matches have finished 3.5 - 2.5, and hence could be described as hard fought e.g. when we lost to the higher graded Cheddleton 2 team, and I spent nearly 6 hours trying to salvage a 3-3 draw from a lost position

[Andrew Wainwright]

If Bradford do win promotion will you play in division 2 next season?

In all honesty we have not yet discussed this. It is on my agenda to discuss with my squad at Crewe later this month.

[LozCooper]

Whilst the European qualifying places are different to promotion places I contact relevant teams after the 4th weekend to ask who wishes to take a European place if they finish in the top 3 teams wanting to go. While this is not binding, it at least gives rival teams a better idea of where they are required to finish. Typically teams such as WGHK, P&P and Guidlford will say no which opens up possibilities to 4th, 5th, 6th etc

Could something similar be asked of those in Division 3? I realise this could potentially be about 20 teams or more but it would at least give some indication.

[Richard Bates]

Under the rules of the league are teams actually "allowed" to refuse promotion? As they stand they only seem to talk about teams failing to renew their entries.* Also teams announcing in advance whether they would take their promotion would be pretty meaningless to other teams in the division if the outcome was simply one fewer team being relegated from Division 2.

*Regardless of the interpretation of the rules, the option of refusing promotion would obviously be preferable to teams essentially attempting to underperform to avoid the possibility.

[David Robertson]

To the question: would we take a promotion to Div 2 if eligible? Spirit of Atticus has not discussed this at all. It has not surfaced as an issue, even marginally, at any of our convivial Saturday evening gatherings. Has the thought crossed our, or my, mind at any point? To be honest, only vaguely in my case. I'd guess, for most of us, the prior considerations are less to do with promotion than whether we will field a team next year; and whether it will be competitive. Of the former concern, we are committed to playing, no doubt there; of the latter concern, we'd like to remain competitive in Div 3N & Div 3 generally, but if promoted we'd want to hold our own in Div 2. That's more problematic as things stand.

When (if?) the promotion question arises, I couldn't call our likely response at this stage. The Northern League is proving to be a pleasant, good-natured, stress-free experience. It doesn't claim to be more than it is - a club/county standard event for reasonable players under good quality conditions. That's a fine start. Assuming promotion to Div 2 (as a 'thought experiment'), I'd guess we'd hear some opinion against the up-shift on grounds of lack of competitiveness. We could strengthen the team of course, but only at the expense of compromises to the spirit which has brought us together to date. There are ways around this, for sure - if we can be bothered to look for them.

More troublesome will be the vexed issue of travel. This is as much a function of psychology and perception as of physical distance; hence, not entirely subject to reason. The issue at stake is not North-South territorial nonsense, as claimed in certain quarters. It's the sense that schlepping down to, say, Daventry and back for a couple of games of chess isn't that enticing. It isn't that enticing to Darlington either, but at least one feels some quid pro quo is involved. And for avoidance of doubt, Wokefield Park might be somewhere near Uranus as far as I'm concerned.

All this could change of course. The 4NCL is new for most of us. Prior to this year, other things have assumed far more importance in my life than a weekend away playing chess. Possibly true for others too. But the Northern League has been enjoyable so far, sporting, sociable and rancour-free. We need to build on that in ways that work for the players involved. I think the teams are committed to the 4NCL concept. I hear no hint that 'the North' wants its own private show - I'd oppose that without a second's thought anyway. But we do face practical problems: retaining teams; expanding what we've started; and resolving the cost-benefit dilemmas of travel.

[David Pardoe]

I guess the `jamboree` creates an element of randomness about the scores, but this might just make for a touch more interest.
Regarding the issue of `who gets promoted`... I don`t see any real problems. Clearly there will be plenty of options, and probably a reasonable selection of `takers`, should there names get drawn out of the hat.

Apart from that, I`d agree the comments of other northern commentators, who I think have generally enjoyed some good chess in very good playing conditions at weekends. Lets hope that more teams join next season and the event gains greater recognition. Certainly some presence from a Lancs and North East based chess groups would be welcome, as would others....
As regards costs and travel...too key issues, I`d draw comparisons with say a typical w/e Congress (like say, Blackpool...coming this w/e), where travel and overnight stays may be required..except that 4NCL only requires a one night stay. I`ll certainly say that going to Harrogate recently was very enjoyable, despite the snow/sleet, etc.

[David Pardoe]

More troublesome will be the vexed issue of travel. This is as much a function of psychology and perception as of physical distance; hence, not entirely subject to reason. The issue at stake is not North-South territorial nonsense, as claimed in certain quarters. It's the sense that schlepping down to, say, Daventry and back for a couple of games of chess isn't that enticing. It isn't that enticing to Darlington either, but at least one feels some quid pro quo is involved. And for avoidance of doubt, Wokefield Park might be somewhere near Uranus as far as I'm concerned.

All this could change of course. The 4NCL is new for most of us. Prior to this year, other things have assumed far more importance in my life than a weekend away playing chess. Possibly true for others too. But the Northern League has been enjoyable so far, sporting, sociable and rancour-free. We need to build on that in ways that work for the players involved. I think the teams are committed to the 4NCL concept. I hear no hint that 'the North' wants its own private show - I'd oppose that without a second's thought anyway. But we do face practical problems: retaining teams; expanding what we've started; and resolving the cost-benefit dilemmas of travel.

David,
Your summing up in your full posting nicely describes the Northern 4NCL League.
Your last couple of sentences to some extent answers itself.
You talk about a `North` show.. then you mention the dilema of travel.
The North has very few shows...so a few more would be no bad thing.
But, partly the reason for this is that Northern players would prefer to avoid the problems and cost of travelling South to play `good quality` chess.
At present we have a few good congress events. County chess could offer good possibilities if better organised & the rules made more sense, and the competition wasn`t so cumbersome. Travel & various issues contrive to make that a potential no-go area for many counties, which is a shame.
Then you`re left with league chess, which is not bad....but I guess many players may find it a bit `rushed` trying to fit it around work, domestic & family commitments. My gripe is about the `blitz` finishes that turn many matches into lottery shootouts. But, it has its merits. Although adjournments arent everyones idea of doing things, I think its better than the `shootout`....and gives players some potentially interesting and useful `endgame` experience.

The other interesting option is `celebratory` or `friendly` events between various chess groups. Manchester have played a few of these in recent years and they`ve been quite well supported. For example, we played a 30-board Celebration match with the Sheffield League, which was `graded`, had an excellent buffet, good playing conditions, and was a very close match played across the full grading spectrum. Hopefully we`ll play another at some point.
We had another more recently with Bradford which was equally enjoyable. These matches, played in a good atmosphere, with no `dubious agendas or bogus politics` really help promote chess in the best light.

Returning....
It will be interesting to see what discussions take place at Crewe later this month, and hopefully the various teams will get together on this. My thoughts are that the league is very good & I hope it will grow and become more popular.
Key to this is how effectively this can be marketted to other Northern/Midlands chess groups/leagues, to encourage more teams to join. Lancs teams & some additional North East/Yorks presence would be very welcome. Maybe Derbs & Notts might enter teams...., we`ll see !
Its the Blackpool Congress this w/e so maybe some players will discuss the possibilities.....presumably 4NCL (or the hosts..), will be posting literature at such events.
This could help to make things much more cost effective & financially viable. Although costs bare fair comparison with travelling to a Congress, where a two-night stay might be required, whereas with the 4NCL its only one night. But the strong point for me is also that it can be regarded as a weekend break, particularly when you go to venues like Harrogate. And even Darlington/Bishop Auckland, on the fringes of the Teesdale Valley, was a nice location with very good playing conditions.
Whether the `4NCL model` can be fine-tuned to give even better results is an interesting question, perhaps taking in some other venues.
Maybe some rule changes might be helpful. Would we be better with a 4-hour playing session followed by a 1-hour per player finish?
Penalties, fees....funding?
No doubt others will have their own comments.