Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:59 pm

So Alex H, you seem to be saying that it is more important that Mike Basman makes money for himself rather than allow more youngsters to play chess ?

The above is not a criticism of Mike Basman as the comments you make are yours and not his.

I personally don't mind how much Mike Basman makes from the event as, due to his initiative, many youngsters have been introduced to the game, but somewhere along the line there surely has to be a compromise between profit and what is good for the game as a whole.

In fact, when a Gigafinal took place in our area a few years ago, several members of our club including myself assisted in the organising/arbiting/backroom work (without payment), but a different set of people did the same work in the other half of the country - so just how many are in this team of people that you say NEED to be at both events and be paid for doing so ?

To be honest I think you would be better to refrain from making comments on behalf of other people (your view of a situation may not be theirs), whilst I also think it is not the done thing to make comments in this forum about how much money any individual makes from running certain events.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:17 pm

Alan Burke wrote:So Alex H, you seem to be saying that it is more important that Mike Basman makes money for himself rather than allow more youngsters to play chess?

The above is not a criticism of Mike Basman as the comments you make are yours and not his.
It wasn't intended as a criticism at all.

His finances are presumably dependent on a certain amount of income throughout the event. So if he loses the Gigafinal income, he needs to make it back at other stages. So does he put the price up for all of the schools in Round 1? Or at the Megafinals?
Alan Burke wrote:I personally don't mind how much Mike Basman makes from the event as, due to his initiative, many youngsters have been introduced to the game, but somewhere along the line there surely has to be a compromise between profit and what is good for the game as a whole.
Neither do I. It's his event, he can do as he pleases.
Alan Burke wrote:IIn fact, when a Gigafinal took place in our area a few years ago, several members of our club including myself assisted in the organising/arbiting/backroom work (without payment), but a different set of people did the same work in the other half of the country - so just how many are in this team of people that you say NEED to be at both events and be paid for doing so ?
I don't know, it's not my event. You're asking the wrong person.
Alan Burke wrote:To be honest I think you would be better to refrain from making comments on behalf of other people (your view of a situation may not be theirs), whilst I also think it is not the done thing to make comments in this forum about how much money any individual makes from running certain events.
Given Mike Basman doesn't post on this forum, why are you asking the question on here if you don't want anyone else to answer it?

I'm simply offering a guess as to why it may be the case that he runs the Gigafinals himself, rather than franchising it out as he does the Megafinal. I'm sure there are other reasons.

Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:33 pm

Alex H .. I don't mind anyone making a comment about the situation, but it would be beneficial for someone not to "presume" or "guess" nor without having the actual facts of the matter at hand.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:49 pm

Alan Burke wrote:Alex H .. I don't mind anyone making a comment about the situation, but it would be beneficial for someone not to "presume" or "guess" nor without having the actual facts of the matter at hand.
OK, so who on here do you expect to answer the question?

This page seems to provide an e-mail and phone number for Mike. Why not e-mail/phone him?

Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:05 am

Alex H .. I wasn't bothered if anyone on here wasn't able to answer any question - but if anyone was to do so, I would hope it would be someone with sufficient knowledge of the situation rather than a person who obviously doesn't but seems to think they do.

Your original answer never said your opinion was a guess or a presumption; it was written as though you had expert knowledge of the situation - which is obviously not the case !

To quote a tune of the sixties .. "Silence is Golden" !

Mike Truran
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Mike Truran » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:17 pm

"Silence is Golden"
A refrain others might do well to bear in mind. :lol:

Andrew Varney
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:25 pm

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Andrew Varney » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:22 pm

Surprised to see so much on the UK Chess Challenge here - I'd have expected it to be a thread at the junior chess section, but now I've come across it, I'm interested in what I'm reading and have something to contribute.
Ray Sayers wrote:I am sure no one would abuse this setup, but as I was musing about it on the school run today, a rather nasty flaw in the rules came to mind. This is hypothetical, mind you, I am sure no one would do this. But say County A was next to County B. And say County A was much stronger than County B. If County A wanted to increase the number of players sent to the Gigafinal, they could send their strongest players to County B and qualify there. However, back in County A, the weaker remaining players would also qualify in their depleted competition and so County A sends several players forward and County B does not.
I think it is really more of an individual event than a county one, so I doubt if anything quite like that would happen. However, I am aware of almost the opposite happening. Because in the Gigafinals, apparently the draw is done in such a way as to avoid qualifiers from a specific county's Megafinals playing others from the same county, there is the possibility of deliberately playing in a stronger county's Megafinal in order to progress further in the Giga. With combined age sections in weaker counties as well, for some even qualification may be biased to those competing in Megafinals in the stronger counties. Whether all of this still makes sense now that there is money at stake in the Megafinals as well, I'm not sure, but it has certainly happened (I'd say successfully from what I've seen for those involved) in at least a few cases in previous years.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:51 pm

Alan Burke wrote:Alex H .. I wasn't bothered if anyone on here wasn't able to answer any question - but if anyone was to do so, I would hope it would be someone with sufficient knowledge of the situation rather than a person who obviously doesn't but seems to think they do.

Your original answer never said your opinion was a guess or a presumption; it was written as though you had expert knowledge of the situation - which is obviously not the case !
OK, well my opinion is that it's to do with the £20,000 it'd cost him if he didn't run them himself. (Assuming 2,000 people pay a £10 entry fee.)

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong. :)

Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:04 am

Alex, although I do understand your comment as seeing it from the organisers' point of view; it still seems a bit unfair on some players who qualify for the Gigafinals but can't attend simply because of their location.

However, perhaps we should look at it from a different angle; if a set date is given for certain players to attend their Gigafinal (as is also case for the Terafinal or indeed any other chess event throughout the year) then why give them the option of attending a different Megafinal just because the date doesn't suit them ?

I don't particularly know of a reason why players cannot transfer Gigafinals but I would assume it is along the lines as described by Ray, that some may well see an easier path through to the next stage by transferring to the other section. Therefore if that option is being denied to them later in the event, why allow it earlier ?

However, by not allowing them to do so for the Megafinals would bring us back to the point originally raised in this thread that some players would have to make a decision whether to compete in the UK Challenge or in any other competition organised for that date (inc 4NCL).

Personally, I think Mike Basman has done a great job in encouraging more youngsters to play chess and the UK Challenge is more about doing that than giving another chance for experienced young players to just show off their skills against lesser opposition.

Therefore, maybe players should only be allowed to play in their own area Megafinal on the set date and, if in the case of playing in the 4NCL or another major chess event on the same day, they be allowed a bye through to the Gigafinal ? (If the players are already good enough to compete in the 4NCL, would they really be needing to compete against many newcomers in the Megafinal and just destroy the confidence of several of those who we are trying to encourage ?) A bye would only be allowed to those playing in another major event that day and not for holidays, etc. (If they were on holiday they would also not available for the 4NCL).

Also, by allowing both the actual qualifiers from the Megafinals, as well as those with a bye to compete in the Gigafinals, Mike Basman will be taking in more entry fees to offset his costs.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:50 am

There is an issue with being hard-nosed about Megafinals too.

Take the West Midlands. It has no separate Megafinal; it has one for Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Staffordshire.

Within a 2-mile radius, you will find the towns of Quinton, Harborne and Edgbaston. These towns are in the historic counties of Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire respectively. All are Birmingham suburbs. The Staffordshire Megafinal is in Newcastle. The Warwickshire Megafinal is in Knowle. The Worcestershire Megafinal is in Worcester.

Knowle is the closest Megafinal for these towns by quite some distance, so people in Birmingham's suburbs tend to gravitate towards Warwickshire's Megafinal, simply because it's the closest one. Indeed, some may not think it worth the effort if they have to trek to Newcastle or Worcester, and so, not enter. This is clearly undesirable.

At the Gigafinal stage, this isn't really a problem. Save for a few extreme examples, most attend their nearest Gigafinal.

Your proposed solution of byes is ridiculous, since then every county would organise their Megafinal to clash with the 4NCL, so that their best players deliberately get through to the Gigafinal, paving the way clear for other players. It also adds an unnecessary administrative burden.

Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:16 am

Alex H .. there is obviously no point in trying to have a reasonable discussion with you. I don't mind people having differing opinions of a subject and coming up with alternative, if not always workable solutions, but by you issuing an insult and saying my suggestion is "ridiculous" you obviously don't wish to listen to anyone else's idea.

Again, you come up with a comment of which you have no proof .. ie "every county would organise their Megafinal to clash with the 4NCL". You know this to be true do you, or is this just another guess or presumption ? (If that was the case, then why don't they already organise them NOT to clash - the answer being that all the venues are not always available on certain dates. However, under your suggestion, it seems they would all suddenly be available on that particular 4NCL date ???)

I don't mind you disagreeing with the idea of byes, but to say it is ridiculous is an insult ! At least I have tried to come up with an idea to counter the problem of two events on the same day - where's yours ?

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:34 am

Alan Burke wrote:Alex H .. there is obviously no point in trying to have a reasonable discussion with you. I don't mind people having differing opinions of a subject and coming up with alternative, if not always workable solutions, but by you issuing an insult and saying my suggestion is "ridiculous" you obviously don't wish to listen to anyone else's idea.
No, I do listen to other people's ideas, but equally, if I think an idea is ridiculous, I will say so.
Alan Burke wrote:Again, you come up with a comment of which you have no proof .. ie "every county would organise their Megafinal to clash with the 4NCL". You know this to be true do you, or is this just another guess or presumption ? (If that was the case, then why don't they already organise them NOT to clash - the answer being that all the venues are not always available on certain dates. However, under your suggestion, it seems they would all suddenly be available on that particular 4NCL date ???)
Well, it's definitely what I'd encourage Warwickshire to do! We'd get far more players qualifying for the Gigafinal.
Alan Burke wrote:I don't mind you disagreeing with the idea of byes, but to say it is ridiculous is an insult ! At least I have tried to come up with an idea to counter the problem of two events on the same day - where's yours ?
My solution is simple. 4NCL captain speaks to the person who organises the County Megafinal, and asks him to avoid the 4NCL. If the organiser doesn't, then that's the county's prerogative, and there's nothing the 4NCL or UKCC can do about it.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18047
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:55 am

Alex Holowczak wrote: My solution is simple. 4NCL captain speaks to the person who organises the County Megafinal, and asks him to avoid the 4NCL. If the organiser doesn't, then that's the county's prerogative, and there's nothing the 4NCL or UKCC can do about it.
The other logical idea is to allow qualification by rating or grade. It's not part of the ethos of the UKCC to do this. It's just the May Bank Holiday weekend that needs to be avoided, is it not?

Alan Burke

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:03 pm

Alex .. it therefore seems you advocate a status quo and thus no actual idea as a solution to the problem raised at the beginning of this thread. As I already said, I don't mind you saying you might disagree with an idea but to term it as ridiculous is an insult, so perhaps you should learn to be a bit more diplomatic in your comments.

It's also nice to see how much you care about the overall game of chess - you are more bothered about getting more of your own top players through to the next stage rather than try and encourage many newcomers to get a foundation in the game !

Roger .. Yes, basically allowing players to be seeded for the event and entering at a later stage (as in the FA Cup), therefore allowing many newcomers the chance to play without being whitewashed by more experienced opponents.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8882
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Megafinals impact rounds 10 & 11 once again!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: My solution is simple. 4NCL captain speaks to the person who organises the County Megafinal, and asks him to avoid the 4NCL. If the organiser doesn't, then that's the county's prerogative, and there's nothing the 4NCL or UKCC can do about it.
The other logical idea is to allow qualification by rating or grade. It's not part of the ethos of the UKCC to do this. It's just the May Bank Holiday weekend that needs to be avoided, is it not?
Yes, that's right. The exam season runs from then until the end of June. If you held a Megafinal in April, then older kids would appreciate it.

Post Reply