THANKS!

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Alan Walton
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Alan Walton » Sun May 13, 2012 6:17 pm

Mike Truran wrote:Of course it was - as were (and are) all the other variables. The advantages of a single venue (Sean's point, Div 3 teams' wish to see the big guns in action, etc etc) were deemed as valid as the disadvantages of room availability given that Staverton, Daventry and non-Puma/De Vere venues are all within striking distance. The fact that we still have three of the weekends as split venues suggests that there are good arguments the other way as well. So (at the risk of repeating myself) hopefully at least most people get what they want at least some of the time.
The hotels at Staverton & Daventry are only within striking distance if you have cars, if the hotel is full and you only commute from North or South using public transport these other hotels are not viable

Mick Norris
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Mick Norris » Sun May 13, 2012 6:35 pm

David Robertson wrote:Of venues that 4NCL might use more of, perhaps for Div 3, the hotel at Wychwood Park (Crewe) is fabulous. Alas, it may not be large enough for the mob.
The Northern League is there twice next season, so that must surely be an option for some Midlands teams (OK, the trip to Redworth Hall near Darlington in January will be challenging, pity Rotherham and Harrogate bit the dust)

The problem I have with Crewe is that I can't realistically ask any of our team to stay if they don't want to, and Holmes Chapel and Cheddleton players are generally closer than we are - if there were new NW based teams, they might not stay either, which leaves the 2 Bradford teams (minus their NW based players) and Jorvik now we have "lost" NE England to promotion

I agree the hotel is good, and having the golf club house on site as an alternative venue for food and drink is good too
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Sean Hewitt
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 13, 2012 8:20 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
David Robertson wrote:Of venues that 4NCL might use more of, perhaps for Div 3, the hotel at Wychwood Park (Crewe) is fabulous. Alas, it may not be large enough for the mob.
The Northern League is there twice next season, so that must surely be an option for some Midlands teams (OK, the trip to Redworth Hall near Darlington in January will be challenging, pity Rotherham and Harrogate bit the dust)
The problem is that you would need to be a very northern midlands team to make this worthwhile.

For example, here's the maths for a Nottingham based team

North (350 miles total)

Rounds 1 and 2
De Vere Wychwood Park (near Crewe) Division 3 North
66 miles

Rounds 3 and 4
Redworth Hall Hotel Division 3 North
130 miles

Rounds 5 and 6
De Vere Wychwood Park (near Crewe) Division 3 North
66 miles

Rounds 7 and 8
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Rounds 9, 10 and 11
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Main (316 miles total)

Rounds 1 and 2
De Vere Venues, Latimer Place Division 3 South
118 miles

Rounds 3 and 4
Daventry Court Hotel Division 3 South
55 miles

Rounds 5 and 6
Daventry Court Hotel Division 3 South
55 miles

Rounds 7 and 8
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Rounds 9, 10 and 11
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

David Pardoe
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Re: THANKS!

Post by David Pardoe » Sun May 13, 2012 9:52 pm

Sean,
Your responce suggests that travel does indeed figure in people`s thinking....but thats true of all chess events..along with other costs & time considerations. Anyone who has captained any sort of team, particularly county sides, will be all too aware of the problems of raising teams.
Even at the tackier end of the chess market, playing chess in local leagues and back street pubs/clubs can prove problematic at times for some clubs, particularly if drivers are in short supply.

That is not in any way intended as a criticism of 4NCL....(before the `red mist` merchants get to work)....nor of local league chess, which in spite of some pretty crude show boating, agenda fixing, and other shanangans, still provides great chess entertainment for many. And its dirt cheap...which suits many locals...and makes it truely accessible for the common people.....Rank & File.

The Hinckley venue for the Finals stages is a very good choice...and definately well suited as a central venue, at least from a motoring point of view..
Its even fairly central for those travelling from extreme ends of the country (if any do)..ie, Penzance, Carlisle, Lancaster, Newcastle, Berwick, Peebles, Clapham, Brighton, Cardiff, etc....
It also offers value as a showcase location, and pulling everyone together in one great finalle does allow for great press recognition and coverage of a major chess event...giving great publicity opportunities...
That the Hotel may not be quite big enough to provide overnight stays for everyone, is not a big issue in my view. Local hotels in the area will be glad of any extra business, and there are savings to be had by booking these... I saw one discount deal at a nearby hotel which came in at £19.95p for single B&B per night. Saving lots over the standard rates of around £50 per night. Searches on the web can often unearth good bargains at quite good hotels. And of course, many choose to commute anyway, if distances are not prohibitive.
BRING BACK THE BCF

Mick Norris
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Mick Norris » Sun May 13, 2012 10:05 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
David Robertson wrote:Of venues that 4NCL might use more of, perhaps for Div 3, the hotel at Wychwood Park (Crewe) is fabulous. Alas, it may not be large enough for the mob.
The Northern League is there twice next season, so that must surely be an option for some Midlands teams (OK, the trip to Redworth Hall near Darlington in January will be challenging, pity Rotherham and Harrogate bit the dust)
The problem is that you would need to be a very northern midlands team to make this worthwhile.

For example, here's the maths for a Nottingham based team

North (350 miles total)

Rounds 1 and 2
De Vere Wychwood Park (near Crewe) Division 3 North
66 miles

Rounds 3 and 4
Redworth Hall Hotel Division 3 North
130 miles

Rounds 5 and 6
De Vere Wychwood Park (near Crewe) Division 3 North
66 miles

Rounds 7 and 8
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Rounds 9, 10 and 11
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Main (316 miles total)

Rounds 1 and 2
De Vere Venues, Latimer Place Division 3 South
118 miles

Rounds 3 and 4
Daventry Court Hotel Division 3 South
55 miles

Rounds 5 and 6
Daventry Court Hotel Division 3 South
55 miles

Rounds 7 and 8
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles

Rounds 9, 10 and 11
Hinckley Island Hotel Divisions 1, 2 and 3 South and North
44 miles
There is a lot more to it than distance, there are great train links to Crewe and Darlington isn't bad

It also depends if you start on the east or west side of the country of course

And we have been told that it is easier to acquire lots of points in the Northern League :wink:

People in the north are friendlier too :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Sean Hewitt
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 13, 2012 10:24 pm

Mick Norris wrote:And we have been told that it is easier to acquire lots of points in the Northern League :wink:
True of course, though the two merged weekends dissipates that advantage somewhat.
Mick Norris wrote:People in the north are friendlier too :lol:
As the Lancashire/Gtr Manchester debate proves. :lol:

William Metcalfe
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Re: THANKS!

Post by William Metcalfe » Fri May 18, 2012 9:13 pm

I have held the opinion that a lot of northern leagues are undergraded compared to the south east leagues i suspect its because of the much smaller pool of players here up north.
The result of said smaller playing pool is players play the same players a lot so are basically just swapping grading points to each other
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Sean Hewitt
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri May 18, 2012 9:55 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:I have held the opinion that a lot of northern leagues are undergraded compared to the south east leagues i suspect its because of the much smaller pool of players here up north.
The result of said smaller playing pool is players play the same players a lot so are basically just swapping grading points to each other
Isn't that [swapping grading points off each other] how it works everywhere, irrespective of pools of players?

Mick Norris
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Mick Norris » Fri May 18, 2012 10:03 pm

William Metcalfe wrote:I have held the opinion that a lot of northern leagues are undergraded compared to the south east leagues i suspect its because of the much smaller pool of players here up north.
The result of said smaller playing pool is players play the same players a lot so are basically just swapping grading points to each other
The more that northern players play in national events (British, 4NCL, County Championships, e2e4 congresses etc), the more accurate the grades will become

G Man played Cambs at U160 level recently, and there was no evidence that the grades were out of balance - if they were, the grading limited sections of the County Championships would mostly be won by northern teams
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 19, 2012 12:04 am

Mick Norris wrote:G Man played Cambs at U160 level recently, and there was no evidence that the grades were out of balance - if they were, the grading limited sections of the County Championships would mostly be won by northern teams
I don't know if it's been repeated in recent years, but when national grading was first established around twenty five years ago, there were various investigations into the shape of the grades by area. So you tabulate the count of players at each grade. The investigations revealed that the middle, where there are the most players, was about 10 points higher in the south. This doesn't of itself tell you that the grades aren't comparable, because you could equally conclude that southern players were a little bit better. You don't see domination by Northern teams or players in rating restricted events, so the little bit better hypothesis is plausible.

National events like 4NCL, British Championships , e2e4, Hastings, National Counties act as a mixing pot anyway. The Internet obviously helps as well, before the Internet it was sometimes worrying to uncork a line that had been published in a magazine against a player who participated in big events. The point being that they may have seen or been told the counter at one of these events. Nowadays, if you are up to date with your TWICs or 4NCL downloads, it shouldn't matter where you live or play.

William Metcalfe
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Re: THANKS!

Post by William Metcalfe » Sat May 19, 2012 12:05 am

No with a larger player pool the points get more disperced sometimes up here in the north east you can play the same player 4/5 times a year in differant league as the same player pool plays in 2 or 3 league.If they play 4 timea and win 2 each or draw all 4 nobody gains or loosses any grading points.This is much leaa likely to happen in a larger playing pool of players.
I am speaking here for myself and not the NCCU which i am now president of

Roger de Coverly
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 19, 2012 12:30 am

William Metcalfe wrote:.If they play 4 timea and win 2 each or draw all 4 nobody gains or loosses any grading points.This is much leaa likely to happen in a larger playing pool of players.
Once you go above 30 games, it isn't zero sum. So if a 150 player who plays 60 games in a season draws 4 games with a 160 player who only plays 30, the 150 player gains less than the 160 player loses. There's the 150 player who plays 30 and the 160 player who plays 60 to balance this. But naturally if you play the same people all the time, the grading system will give you the internal rankings, but is less reliable as to how you compare with the rest of the country. This applies particularly if you all become much better players.

Simon Brown
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Simon Brown » Fri May 25, 2012 7:58 pm

Thanks from a non-player too. Are Div 3 round 11 games going to go the way of the last round of the Major Open at the British?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri May 25, 2012 8:46 pm

Simon Brown wrote:Thanks from a non-player too. Are Div 3 round 11 games going to go the way of the last round of the Major Open at the British?
No, they won't.

The problem for the inputters at the final weekend was that one of our inputters had an accident on the Saturday morning and didn't travel. So we were a man down all weekend.

Come the Monday evening, Jack and I remained, with a pile of 126 Division 3 Round 11 games to do.

Unfortunately, neither of us are great work-from-home men, and it was left to me to take one for the team, so to speak.

And so, 250 scoresheets lie on my desk, representing 126 games. (Well, at least 2 are missing so far...) 64 games are done, 62 are to be done. It's on my to-do list, but it's behind a lot of other more important things for the next fortnight, I'm afraid.

Simon Brown
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Re: THANKS!

Post by Simon Brown » Fri May 25, 2012 9:59 pm

Alex, that's OK. There are some games by kids I used to coach and I'm interested!

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