Oh, really!

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Two points:

(2) If I was talking to an Abromovich-style benefactor who was interested in 'buying' the 4NCL title, how much do you think he (or she) would have to spend to be successful (by 'buying' I mean, of course, sponsoring a team to the tune of bussing in GMs and a few WGMs as well)? I'm talking the minimal amount here, as this Abromovich doesn't have bottomless pockets...
I don't know much more than anyone else here* because as alluded to above I don't get involved with this sort of thing, but if the sponsored teams of last year were to have similar budgets again, then I would guess 30 grand. Remember you are paying hotel, dinner and travel too, and Adams will cost you between £500-750 per game. It is rumoured that Judit Polgar cost 5 grand for her one game appearance in May 2006 ... but the money thrown about in 2005/6 was insane and simply unsustainable.

* Chris should really send a PM to Claire Summerscale, but she only had one big spending rival when her team won it

Simon Ansell
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Simon Ansell » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:42 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Two points:

(1) The last few positions on that static page don't have solutions (numbers 9628 to 9632). It seems the page was truncated at the wrong point, omitting the solutions to the last set of positions (oh, and the position that started the discussion in this thread was position number 9664, if anyone is looking for that and failing to find it).

(2) If I was talking to an Abromovich-style benefactor who was interested in 'buying' the 4NCL title, how much do you think he (or she) would have to spend to be successful (by 'buying' I mean, of course, sponsoring a team to the tune of bussing in GMs and a few WGMs as well)? I'm talking the minimal amount here, as this Abromovich doesn't have bottomless pockets...
The answer to (2) is probably "£1 more than Brian Smith spends on Wood Green", but I don't know what that is, nor would I like to speculate.

Looking at the 4NCL Round 9 Division 1 results for this season, of the teams that did not get relegated only Barbican (I* & II), Cambridge and Blackthorne do not have at least one professional player appearing for them. No one gets paid (or has been paid) for playing for Blackthorne/Betsson. The minimal amount we get goes towards accommodation costs. Yes, it was a bad season, but in general I think we're doing ok.

* don't know if Sam C considers himself "professional"?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:47 pm

Thanks for the answers. Was the money being spent in 2005/6 more than 30 grand? :shock: (Actually, I was worried it might be some silly figure, that is peanuts compared to some sports, are chess players underselling themselves?).

What about other national leagues. How much does it cost to run a top Bundesliga team? Do some of the Olympiad teams have to pay for the players from the top 10-20 in the world to turn out? Why is Carlsen not playing for Norway (actually, that last one is easy, and I may be wrong as the teams on the official website may not be the confirmed teams, but presumably he will play in 2014?). And is Anand playing for India, my recollection is that he isn't and never has, but again I may be wrong there.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:52 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: And is Anand playing for India, my recollection is that he isn't and never has, but again I may be wrong there.
http://www.olimpbase.org/ is the place to look. He's certainly not a recent regular, with his last appearance in Turin.

http://www.olimpbase.org/players/mw0k8ogi.html

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:01 pm

Simon Ansell wrote: * don't know if Sam C considers himself "professional"?
No, he is a barrister. He certainly writes a lot about chess, but so does his team mate John Cox. I don't know how they do it!

Mick Norris
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:03 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: And is Anand playing for India, my recollection is that he isn't and never has, but again I may be wrong there.
Not according to the official site, which lists the team without him

Gelfand will play, but not Carlsen, Aronian will play as will Radjabov, Ivanchuk, Caruana, Topalov

USA and Russia don't appear to have declared :?: , but I would expect Nakamura, Kramnik, Morozevich and Karjakin to play
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:09 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Thanks for the answers. Was the money being spent in 2005/6 more than 30 grand? :shock:
It must have been. Even today, 30 grand is your realistic "minimal quote", and success is far from guaranteed if you can't go higher.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: (Actually, I was worried it might be some silly figure, that is peanuts compared to some sports, are chess players underselling themselves?).
No "underselling", because we don't sell ourselves at all! With the possible exception of London Victoria, and I am not sure even about them, there has not been a genuine commercial sponsor (ie some non chess-player who has no personal connection somewhere choosing to sponsor a chess team or event) in English chess for several years.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: What about other national leagues. How much does it cost to run a top Bundesliga team? Do some of the Olympiad teams have to pay for the players from the top 10-20 in the world to turn out? Why is Carlsen not playing for Norway (actually, that last one is easy, and I may be wrong as the teams on the official website may not be the confirmed teams, but presumably he will play in 2014?). And is Anand playing for India, my recollection is that he isn't and never has, but again I may be wrong there.
Olympiad teams - of course professonal players want to be paid their going rate, and national federations will need large pockets or sponsors. Thus the messy business with Adams two years ago.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:18 pm

[quote="Simon Ansell"] ....
Looking at the 4NCL Round 9 Division 1 results for this season, of the teams that did not get relegated only Barbican (I* & II), Cambridge and Blackthorne do not have at least one professional player appearing for them... [quote]

FWIW, I doubt that there is a professional player in e2e4, unless it's Slavin?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:19 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote: With the possible exception of London Victoria, and I am not sure even about them, there has not been a genuine commercial sponsor (ie some non chess-player who has no personal connection somewhere choosing to sponsor a chess team or event) in English chess for several years.
It was Liverpool Victoria (LV=) and the connection is one of their non executive directors.

Simon Ansell
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Simon Ansell » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Simon Ansell wrote: ....
Looking at the 4NCL Round 9 Division 1 results for this season, of the teams that did not get relegated only Barbican (I* & II), Cambridge and Blackthorne do not have at least one professional player appearing for them...

FWIW, I doubt that there is a professional player in e2e4, unless it's Slavin?
I assumed Rizouk, but I could be wrong.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:04 pm

Simon Ansell wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: FWIW, I doubt that there is a professional player in e2e4, unless it's Slavin?
[/quote]

I assumed Rizouk, but I could be wrong.[/quote]

Ok, but he only played for one weekend, and that was as a favour (!) to one of their opponents .... They got to the promotion pool without him.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: With the possible exception of London Victoria, and I am not sure even about them, there has not been a genuine commercial sponsor (ie some non chess-player who has no personal connection somewhere choosing to sponsor a chess team or event) in English chess for several years.
It was Liverpool Victoria (LV=) and the connection is one of their non executive directors.
yes, Liverpool Victoria :oops:

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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Simon Ansell wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: FWIW, I doubt that there is a professional player in e2e4, unless it's Slavin?
I assumed Rizouk, but I could be wrong.
Ok, but he only played for one weekend, and that was as a favour (!) to one of their opponents .... They got to the promotion pool without him.
Correct. His day job sees him working in finance. He came over and played as a favour to help an opponent have a chance of a GM norm.

Simon Ansell
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Simon Ansell » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:51 pm

I stand corrected.

In any case, my point remains the same, which is that Blackthorne, regardless of our name, are currently entirely an amateur squad and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. We should be stronger next season, but only because Adam will be available and Harriet is likely to play more often.

If the day comes when sponsors decide to replace the current loyal players that have served the team so well over the last seven or eight years - which is what Leonard seems to be advocating - then most of the current team will probably decide to leave and seek alternative opportunites. I'm not entirely sure who that scenario would possibly benefit?

Richard Bates
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Re: Oh, really!

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:12 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:Simon, as I already wrote above, I'll bring your valuable points and indeed this entire thread to the attention of Evening Standard management on Monday.

As regards Blackthorne Russia, I still think it would do no harm at all and possibly considerable good if you or someone relevant from the team contacted them, guided them to the favourable press mentions, and asked for extra funds to enable the team to become more serious 4NCL challengers.
Hi Leonard, I think this is to misunderstand the team, as Simon explained. We are not the sort of team that is suited to putting money in to try and challenge for the league because even to include a couple of extra players (which wouldn't be nearly sufficient to mount a challenge) would mean regular players not being able to play. Our team aims (in chess, as opposed to social, terms) are to try get in the top half and hopefully get a place in the European Club Cup (with the additional aim for individuals of getting norms). Even these limited aims are compromised by a rotation policy which means that we don't routinely put out our strongest available team. And bear in mind that "Team management" and alternative sponsor plays on a low board and already sacrifices his position more often than he would probably like. We don't have a second team, which makes a big difference when such ideas are floated.

Blackthorne Russia have been very generous in providing three things - a contributions toward costs, a lifetime supply of t-shirts (some still available i believe on request!) and, especially, a team name at a time when we were in danger of not having one ("Lokomotiv Plovdiv" was a runner for a bit!). Hopefully they get some limited exposure in return (they would get a bit more if we weren't all so useless and actually managed to qualify for Europe). I think they probably would pay for a GM or two if we wanted one, but that would only probably be if we were in a position of it being absolutely necessary to avoid relegation.

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