4NCL North weekend 1

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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Mick Norris
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4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:47 pm

http://www.4ncl.livechess.co.uk/div3_20 ... 3n-rd1.htm

Day 1 - not surprising good results for Bradford A and Aigburth (nice to see them back)

Cheddleton 2 seem stronger than Holmes Chapel

Pleasing draw between the Manticores and first timers Atticus
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Andrew Bak
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Andrew Bak » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:49 pm

Report from 4NCL Div 3 North.

http://yorkshirechess.org/4ncl-201213-d ... rounds-12/

Many thanks to Roger Edwards and Matthew Carr for making the event run very smoothly (and for helping me out in my time pressure!)

Mike Truran
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:03 am

Here's Lawrence's report on proceedings:
4NCL Northern League 24-25 November 2012

The first weekend of the 2012-13 season took place at the DeVere Wychwood Park Hotel near Crewe. The division comprises of eight teams and matches are played over six boards. Two teams ended the weekend with maximum match points; Cheddleton 2 and Bradford DCA Knights 1 with the former leading on game points.

Whilst Cheddleton’s first team consists mainly of hired professional players, many of whom are titled; their second team consists mainly of strong club players from the local area including a large number from the Cheddleton & Leek club and two from Stafford. In round one they played their local North Staffs League rivals Holmes Chapel and wins by Alex Richardson, Simon Edwards (son of ECF president Roger) and William Armstrong led them to a 4.5-1.5 victory. They followed this up with a 5.5-0.5 victory against Bradford DCA Knights B with wins for Craig Whitfield, Alex Richardson, Gerald Acey & Malcolm Armstrong (both Stafford) and William Armstrong.

Bradford DCA Knights A fielded Oskar Hackner on top board who recently returned from an impressive World Youth debut in Slovenia and won both their matches; 4.5-1.5 against Jorvik and 4-2 against Manchester Manticores. Tony Slinger scored 2/2 whilst Roger Jennings, Eric Gardiner and Andrew Bak all scored 1.5.

Atticus had a reasonably successful weekend starting with a 3-3 draw against Manchester Manticores followed by a 3.5-2.5 win against Jorvik to end the weekend on three match points.

Holmes Chapel recovered well from their loss to Cheddleton with a 3.5-2.5 victory against Aigburth to join them on two match points. The latter had a comfortable 5.5-0.5 victory against Bradford DCA Knights B on Saturday. Manchester Manticores have one match point and Jorvik and Bradford DCA Knights B have yet to open their account.

Website links:

Table: http://www.4ncl.livechess.co.uk/div3_20 ... 3n-rd2.htm
Results: http://www.4ncl.livechess.co.uk/div3_20 ... 3n-rd1.htm & http://www.4ncl.livechess.co.uk/div3_20 ... 3n-rd2.htm

My thanks to the hotel for providing excellent accommodation and playing conditions and also to the control team of Matthew Carr and the ECF President Roger Edwards.

The second weekend takes place on the 12th and 13th January 2013 at Redworth Hall Hotel in County Durham.

David Robertson
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by David Robertson » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:20 pm

Room take-up rate?

Crucial, I guess, if this important undertaking is to be sustained. My point is, of course, that the venue (Crewe) is wonderful (as I fondly recall). But five of the eight teams currently can happily commute it.

Mike Truran
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Bob - I would be surprised (and delighted) if the full allocation were already booked, but in any event even if the allocation has been filled all our venues will honour the 4NCL rate if rooms are still available. If they don't, please let me know!

David - you're spot on. The current model (crude though it is) assumes that half the teams will stay and half the teams will travel, so 50% or thereabouts bedroom take-up over the course of a season (less a bit for people staying with friends, finding other accommodation etc). Richard Mounce just a few days ago suggested more central venues to reduce travelling for half the teams (but presumably as a side effect also increasing travelling for the teams who are currently fairly close to the venues). But would that (a) encourage more of the teams to stay over (b) enable more of them to commute? From the venues' point of view, (a) would be excellent news, but (b) could threaten the continuing provision of free venues, room commission etc as being financially unviable from their point of view. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I thought I would just throw it open for debate. Of course the more teams we have in the Northern League the less of an issue it becomes as critical mass kicks in.

Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:20 am

Bob Clark wrote:Well certainly all the Bradford and Jorvik players stayed, and a couple of us from Holmes Chapel also booked rooms, as well as one of the Arbiters.
Not sure if I saw any of the other teams staying over, bu I may be wrong.
The take up for Redworth Hall may be better, as apparently all the allocation had been booked when I rang to book our rooms, but luckily they had other rooms available at the Chess rate
4 of the Manticores stayed at Crewe and 5 had dinner in the restaurant on Saturday night
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:00 am

I fear that its quite possibly doomed to stay a long way off critical mass so working out how to keep it long term viable with a few teams probably rather matters.

Certainly participation from Yorkshire isn't ever likely to take off - the Yorkshire league and multiple congresses are always going to notably limit participation from there to true chess fanatics. Around Sheffield they play so much in their local league that they slightly struggle to take even the Yorkshire league seriously :)
(White rose 1/2 and the like in the main 4NCL are a bit different as there's the clear motivation for the stronger players of getting properly strong and varied opposition.).

If its going to justify itself properly it needs to be getting rather more, and ideally stronger, players from the area round Manchester and maybe the North East than it is presently doing. It is at least pleasing to see Manchester not defaulting multiple boards this time round but you really would want to be getting multiple teams from there. Oh well.

Mick Norris
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:45 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:If its going to justify itself properly it needs to be getting rather more, and ideally stronger, players from the area round Manchester and maybe the North East than it is presently doing. It is at least pleasing to see Manchester not defaulting multiple boards this time round but you really would want to be getting multiple teams from there. Oh well.
We have defaulted only 1 board per match at the very most - last season, the 2 occasions were caused by a car accident on the way to the venue, and a player being snowed in

You are welcome to join the team if you wish :)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:37 pm

Realism I think. Seriously, when this was announced I expected a few Manchester teams, the odd NW one and maybe some NE ones and the odd Yorkshire one.

The geography in/for the NE isn't great though. Durham or Newcastle perhaps possible but the NE hasn't fielded an open or U175 county team for a long time now. Manchester is where you're still short of expectation really, so I'd be trying to get the two teams you need for break even from there. Glad to hear that its so close.

The basic problem you've got with Yorkshire is that basically everybody who'd be interested in the 4NCL North is already playing 11 weekends a year in the Yorkshire league and the odd congress. If the Yorkshire league didn't exist I'd fully expect you to get at least 15 Yorkshire teams. (or even 20-30. The Yorkshire league is 30 teams of 8 players each.).

As it is I expect that an awful lot of the Yorkshire players are like me in liking at least a few chess free weekends each year :) (I'd be very interested without the Yorkshire league, but with it basically not at all.).

Nice to hear that break even is so close and that Manchester got a bit sorted out last year too. (I'd been sent into exile and so stopped tracking it so much :)).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:49 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote: The basic problem you've got with Yorkshire is that basically everybody who'd be interested in the 4NCL North is already playing 11 weekends a year in the Yorkshire league and the odd congress.
For that matter, the 4NCL venues in the Midlands, Daventry and Hinckley take no longer to reach from parts of Yorkshire than Staffordshire or Cheshire ones such as Crewe.

David Pardoe
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by David Pardoe » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:09 pm

Firstly, I do believe the 4NCL Northern league has much to offer to chess enthusiasts in our region.
I wonder if there is an arguement for ditching the Yorkshire w/e league, or restructuring it to merge forces with the 4NCL Northern league. If, by doing this, the league could become much larger and possibly offer say 6 w/e`s matches, that might provide sufficient w/e chess for the Northern quarter of a fairly high calibre, and very good venues.
As regards increasing the leagues teams.....Maybe if say White Rose, Leeds Old Boys and some other Northern teams actually came into the Northern League (from the southern 4NCL Div 3 group), that would add greatly to its clout. Add to that...it would be good to get some teams from Lancashire/Preston & the North East/Darlinglton/Teesside....and possibly from Lincs and Notts areas.
Yes a team from South Manchester would be excellent, and I really would like to see the Stockport league get more involved and enter a team. This might create the opportunity for more Northern venues, like say Harrogate/Sheffield.
One problem I think is down to perceptions.. Some players feel (wrongly) that this league is soley for players rated around 200+ territory. Thats not the case..there is a good spread of players from 220ish down to about 140ish, so this league offers great chess playing opportunities for many club players. Its certainly true that a few more 200+ players would add greatly to the 4NCL Northern leagues cudos and I really hope some players will give this serious thought. I`m not sure how to get this message across more effectively. I`ve tried putting out posters at some northern congresses to boost awareness. And any players interested should note that current teams would be glad of more players, to mention Aigsburth/South Liverpool as but one. Get in touch with team captains via the 4NCL website if you know anyone who might be interested.
Producing teams with squads of about 10 - 14 players should be relatively achievable, I think and many of the leagues captains would be only too willing to offer advice to anyone looking to run a new team. Teams can represent any group of players, including from clubs, leagues, or just areas (like say South Cheshire), and the w/e chess package comes at a reasonably affordable rate, given the good quality hotels for the Saturday night....and the social side that this offers is very good, and well described by John Carlton in his reports on the 4NCL website.
We need a bit more positive `can do` attitude.......yes, I know all the best football teams come from the North, but thats no excuse. PS Sunderland are also looking for players, I believe...!! :) :)
BRING BACK THE BCF

MartinCarpenter
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:04 am

No, no chance of ever merging the competitions really. The Yorkshire league is both a lot bigger, somewhat stronger (certainly in terms of the Yorkshire teams playing) and runs on a totally different model. (Transient matches on Saturday evenings vs weekends and staying over.).

The best place for 200+ players is always going to be in the main divisions of the 4NCL where they can reliably play different people of their strength and above, hence the two White Rose teams, 3C's, the North East team etc being there instead. That probably ensures that 3C's 2 will always be down south too.

4NCL north definetly has plenty to offer for the plentiful people a bit below that strength in/around Manchester.

I guess that central/South Manchester has a problem organisation wise. There's basically Stockport and Chorlton, and while you seem to be quite organised and steady, Chorlton basically relies on all the - often fairly transient - people in the Center of Manchester and so really isn't and won't ever be.

Andrew Bak
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Re: 4NCL North weekend 1

Post by Andrew Bak » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:18 pm

Div 3 North has been directly responsible for bringing 10 new teams into the 4NCL over the last 3 seasons, that's increased the size of Div 3 by between 20-25%. Three of its teams have been promoted to Div 2 and are thus now playing in the Southern venues. In my view, this constitutes as an early success for a very new league!

Martin is right that the Woodhouse Cup does provide high-quality weekend chess, but in my experience people make a big distinction between 42/105 + 15 and 40/120 + 20/60 + 30. Some prefer the longer time afforded by the 4NCL while others would prefer to play more games in a weekend (e.g. a Congress) and some like to play everything!

I know at Bradford we all enjoy the social side of a weekend away and all of us will be staying at the hotels for all the weekends - after all if nobody stayed over then we wouldn't be able to play in the hotel venue!

Frankly I don't see why more of the Midlands and even Northern teams don't play in Div 3 North, especially the more ambitious ones seeking promotion!

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