Wood Green

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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Ben Purton
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Ben Purton » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:36 pm

Simon, your team are massive favourites to go back to back to back Layne Flack and stay up
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Simon Ansell
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Simon Ansell » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:57 pm

Ben Purton wrote:Simon, your team are massive favourites to go back to back to back Layne Flack and stay up
I'd like to lay you that bet, but I fear that gambling on match results between players is something else that may not be allowed by the rules!

I am now retiring for the second time.

Richard Bates
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:02 pm

For me it is quite simple - the only decision to be made for a league is whether you allow multiple teams within a combined squad or you don't.

Once you've made that decision, the advantages that such teams can have cannot be mitigated by rule tweaks, because there will always be scenarios whereby perverse situations are created. Especially for teams like Barbican who are essentially amateur and operate within the confines of their declared squad without recourse to buying in resources in order to fill gaps. I don't know if Simon is of the opinion that Jonathan should be banned from playing against Cambridge (I guess he must be), but it seems unfair to me. A squad like Barbican couldn't operate under this restriction because regular 2nd team players would refuse to fill in for the first team if it compromised their chances of playing every game. A rule could not easily be written to prevent "1st teamers" playing for the 2nd team, that did not also prevent "2nd teamers" playing for the 1st team when availability is short. ("Nominated player" rules that exist in many local leagues have only limited success). As i've pointed out it can also lead to a theoretical situation where a team could be effectively forced to buy in a player from outside their squad, whether they want to or no. So IMO if you want to avoid the possibility on competitive grounds you must ban second teams full stop.

But the attractions for an amateur team are clear. A multi-team squad enables them to guarantee games to a far greater number/percentage of their players and therefore creates greater harmony within the squad. It also is good for junior development, because a junior can start at a low level and rapidly advance to a higher level through the course of a season.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:22 pm

Richard Bates wrote:So IMO if you want to avoid the possibility on competitive grounds you must ban second teams full stop.
Cricket does this. In the Birmingham Premier League, there's a 1st XI league with 4 divisions of 12, and a 2nd XI league with 4 divisions of 12 running in parallel. Beyond that, your club's 3rd and 4th XIs (or even 5th XIs!) play in the Shropshire, Worcestershire, Staffordshire or Warwickshire Leagues, depending on which county you best fit into.

Simon Ansell
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Simon Ansell » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:25 pm

Richard Bates wrote:A squad like Barbican.
One last point - how many "squads like Barbican" are there in the 4NCL? I assume you mean primarily amateur squads with multiple teams having several players that are generally interchangeable between the teams (I was searching for a better definition, but couldn't come up with one)? One or two, at most, if you include e2e4.org.uk (I'm sticking with Divs 1 and 2). Barbican have 46 players registered as of this weekend and three teams across the leagues - I find it hard to believe they couldn't operate, but Jonathan will know better than me.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 01, 2013 12:17 am

David Williams wrote:Ten pages in, and I confess I'm still as staggered as ever that an individual can play for more than one team in the premier club competition in the country.
It isn't really a club competition as such. Most if not all the participating teams have no separate identity outside of the 4NCL. The somewhat insoluble problem in 4NCL league rules is that the leisure player of a sufficiently high standard would be prepared to set aside five weekends to play, but in return would like a guarantee of selection. Squads with a single team can manage this after a fashion with a rotation system as in practice not everyone is able to play the full eleven rounds. With eligibility being determined by the players self selecting the teams they play for," bussing in " has become a long established practice.

Does anyone know how the German league copes with this? I don't think they allow second teams in the top division, so what happens to German leisure or amateur players when they are displaced by guest workers?

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Ben Purton
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Ben Purton » Wed May 01, 2013 7:48 am

Right.

Firstly, We use to have multiple teams and in fact dabbled with the multiple squads idea but you have the practical issues there. If I have a set 20 players and 4 of the top ones dont play, I could end up with a weaker first team than second team which is a bit ludicrous.

Secondly, maybe you should have a rule on players playing each other but not teams. So for example a player can play a team twice but if the scenario happens where it is X V X again then you could adjust the teams(80 point rule?)


This thread has gone totally off the actual priority issue here which was the fact that the league should not have allowed these registrations to take place. The league has been now made to look more "amateurish" in the negative sense of the word. I think the main negative is the fact that I asked some of the players if they are playing. I am well within my rights to ask this question. The two players I asked had not been sent invites of any kind, therefore did not know. That was the key wrong piece. If they had all agreed to partake in the joke. Then I could not really complain.

To those people who have said "it was an expensive joke" etc etc. Do you actually know how much it costs to run a professional chess side? £85 is nothing for the element of confusing the prep of the opposition. I would imagine/"know" that for the final weekend £85 would be far less than 1% of the total cost of the Wood Green teams.

Certain Blackthorn and Barbican players should really be careful when being critical of professional chess players in the league. Whilst the joke above was a bad one. Wood Green having such strong players/funding is absoulutely key to the enjoyment of the league for most of my team. I cannot speak for your players but I imagine that many make the long trips on their own dime to play strong opposition. I find it interesting especially as your team name is a company team name. Therefore one assumes they provide some form of funding to that side. If Wood Green want to make their second team ludicrously strong for the final weekend. It really damages my teams chances of an upset this Saturday. Is it unfair? Not really, if a football team sign players in the January window they can end up playing 4 times v the same side , the premier league is a double round robin basically.

It would be interesting to know who's idea it was to register those players, was it a captain of the "manager" etc. It was good to see Andrew Martin come against the idea also.
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed May 01, 2013 9:08 am

I dont see why it is such a big deal either, you are (potentially) getting the chance to watch the world elite play games FOR FREE - if anything Wood green should be thanked for providing such entertainment.

Obviously it is not so much fun for the regular teams who will get mauled, but it will at least make a change from the usual complaint that they are having to put their rating on the line against low graded opposition - now they get to be the guy with everything to gain and nothing to lose, and there is something very liberating about being in such a situation.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Ben Purton
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Ben Purton » Wed May 01, 2013 10:27 am

Pretty sure i reiterated my point that its the registration of people who are definately not turning up that is the issue.
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Alan Walton
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Alan Walton » Wed May 01, 2013 10:41 am

One way around all this is to have fixed squad sizes

For example for each team you have in the league you are only allowed to register 16 players (negotiable), you can still have the single wildcard at the weekend

Most teams have 4/5 players who turn up at every weekend, therefore getting 3 from 10 shouldn't cause to much problems

Chris Rice
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Chris Rice » Wed May 01, 2013 10:47 am

Alan Walton wrote:One way around all this is to have fixed squad sizes

For example for each team you have in the league you are only allowed to register 16 players (negotiable), you can still have the single wildcard at the weekend

Most teams have 4/5 players who turn up at every weekend, therefore getting 3 from 10 shouldn't cause to much problems
Good point Alan. RDC asked what they did in Germany earlier and I believe they have fixed squad sizes up to 18 players. Check this link out for the recent season and take a look at OSG Baden-Baden's team.

http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/bunde ... which-team

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Wood Green

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed May 01, 2013 10:56 am

Something like limiting total squad sizes does seem rather sane.
(Mind you even that might just about have an impact - Sheffield D used 23 players just to run a team of 8 without defaults in the Yorkshire league last season....).

White rose do also have two teams who share the odd player at times, although different divisions of course.

A pair of hypothetical combined Jutes of Blackthorn team(s) would just be very different entities to the present set up - the first team would be notably stronger and the second team notably weaker than either stand alone team. Really not a lot of flexiblity left once you line everyone up in legal grade order. No additional advantages really.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 01, 2013 11:02 am

Chris Rice wrote: RDC asked what they did in Germany earlier and I believe they have fixed squad sizes up to 18 players.
I was more interested in what happens to the reserves. If you are the 2100 rated player at number 18 in the squad, does that effectively bar you from taking part in any weekend team chess in Germany? The regional competitions are, as far as I am aware, treated as part of the National competition, so on paper at least, a team can start off in what is effectively the equivalent to a county based league and work its way up to division 1.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 01, 2013 11:06 am

Alan Walton wrote:One way around all this is to have fixed squad sizes
If final weekend hired guns is seen as a problem, maximum squad sizes might help. It might be necessary to weaken the rule a bit, so that if you want to exceed the quota, you can expel players from the squad if they haven't played at all.

Alan Walton
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Re: Wood Green

Post by Alan Walton » Wed May 01, 2013 11:12 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Something like limiting total squad sizes does seem rather sane.
(Mind you even that might just about have an impact - Sheffield D used 23 players just to run a team of 8 without defaults in the Yorkshire league last season....).

White rose do also have two teams who share the odd player at times, although different divisions of course.

A pair of hypothetical combined Jutes of Blackthorn team(s) would just be very different entities to the present set up - the first team would be notably stronger and the second team notably weaker than either stand alone team. Really not a lot of flexiblity left once you line everyone up in legal grade order. No additional advantages really.
Martin, the squad size for teams with multiple entries will just be doubled, the normal 80 point rule would apply

This is just to make teams a bit more vigilent was entering teams and not just registering players so others cannot approach them

Chris, I was thinking about the Bundesliga when suggesting this

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