Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Andrew Bak
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Andrew Bak » Thu May 08, 2014 11:10 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:From her twitter feed (via Yorkshire chess) it looks like Sue Maroroa got a full IM norm, which is a fine achievement.

I imagine James Adair must have got an IM norm too? He was certainly trying for a GM norm before the final weekend.
Yes he did - this is his final IM norm.

Sue also obtained a WGM norm in addition to her IM norm.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 8:13 am

I heard of at least one other IM norm as well. The reason I am interested in a full listing from the organisers is to see whether they are actively aware of all of them (the relevant officials have to be to sign off on the norm). The impression I got from the bit on the website ("Anyone else who thinks they may achieve a norm should contact [us]") was that if someone scored an unexpected IM norm but didn't contact the organisers, then that might cause problems. I believe a listing has been published in past seasons, so maybe there is a delay for some reason this time.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Phil Neatherway » Fri May 09, 2014 9:00 am

I believe Oxford's Justin Tan got an IM norm.

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John Saunders
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by John Saunders » Fri May 09, 2014 9:17 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The reason I am interested in a full listing from the organisers is to see whether they are actively aware of all of them (the relevant officials have to be to sign off on the norm). The impression I got from the bit on the website ("Anyone else who thinks they may achieve a norm should contact [us]") was that if someone scored an unexpected IM norm but didn't contact the organisers, then that might cause problems.
I'm afraid this is yet another example of the forum putting two and two together and making five (as well as importuning people to supply information as if the forum had a statutory right to be informed). Although it's not something I'm directly involved in, I share a room with officials at the 4NCL and I am witness to the fact that they are diligent and proactive in determining norms and their achievement. I've also seen evidence that they communicate effectively with the players involved.

Via Twitter I've already communicated the fact that James Adair and Peter Roberson gain norms and completed their qualifications for the IM title. As far as I know (any mistakes here will be mine as I left before other 4NCL officials finished work on Monday), other IM norms were achieved by Alberto Suarez Real (Spain), Sue Maroroa (England – also a WGM norm), Adam Ashton (England) and Justin Tan (Australia). This info also appears in my weekend report, which has been completed and should be appearing soon on the website.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 9:29 am

John Saunders wrote: I'm afraid this is yet another example of the forum putting two and two together and making five (as well as importuning people to supply information as if the forum had a statutory right to be informed).
I don't think it's just the forum. Any reader of the 4NCL website would have been confronted by a bland statement.
4NCL Title Norms

30.4.14 - The relevant captains calculations of what players require for title norms (in cases where we think chances are realistic) have been sent out. Anyone else who thinks they may achieve a norm should contact Matt Carr and Dave Thomas by e-mail, or speak to Matt at Hinckley Island over the weekend.
So why the apparent shyness about naming names? Were the opponents of the Norm seekers let in on the secret? If the 4NCL can be used for obtaining Norms, that's positive publicity for the league.

It would have been my impression that identities of Norm seekers had been made public in previous years, going back to the earliest days of the League.

Those following the matches might also wish to know, as Norm chances can be used to justify board orders otherwise infringing the 80 point rule.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri May 09, 2014 9:43 am

Eh, I'm sure the people in the matches will have known :)

Getting the publicity from it seems to have got slightly delayed because the report has done so very slightly. Worth double checking it too of course. Some nice reports from Div3 already up.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 9:50 am

I should think that there is every chance that this is the first time that a female player has made a ("male") title norm in 4NCL.

Which would have made the job of the England selectors that bit easier, I am sure.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 9:58 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
John Saunders wrote: I'm afraid this is yet another example of the forum putting two and two together and making five (as well as importuning people to supply information as if the forum had a statutory right to be informed).
I don't think it's just the forum. Any reader of the 4NCL website would have been confronted by a bland statement.
4NCL Title Norms

30.4.14 - The relevant captains calculations of what players require for title norms (in cases where we think chances are realistic) have been sent out. Anyone else who thinks they may achieve a norm should contact Matt Carr and Dave Thomas by e-mail, or speak to Matt at Hinckley Island over the weekend.
So why the apparent shyness about naming names? Were the opponents of the Norm seekers let in on the secret? If the 4NCL can be used for obtaining Norms, that's positive publicity for the league.

It would have been my impression that identities of Norm seekers had been made public in previous years, going back to the earliest days of the League.

Those following the matches might also wish to know, as Norm chances can be used to justify board orders otherwise infringing the 80 point rule.
Captains do talk, Roger, even though not on this forum. It is quite normal for them to need to be sure that their seeker will play a titled player or someone of a certan minimum rating. So I already knew of Justin and Suarez's norm chances befiore the weekend, as well as those of Yang-Fan (though he lost in the end to another norm seeker, Roberson, a pairing which might have been avoided). I also told Sean Hewitt (managing e2e4) of the requirements of one of our norm seekers, Chris Dorrington, who frustratingly missed a forced win in his (admittedly complicated) game.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 10:01 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:I should think that there is every chance that this is the first time that a female player has made a ("male") title norm in 4NCL.
You would have to go back a few years, but did Harriet Hunt or Jovanka Houska get any of their Norms from the 4NCL?

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 10:08 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote: It is quite normal for them to need to be sure that their seeker will play a titled player or someone of a certan minimum rating.
The secrecy is something new and a retrograde step.

From Google, this is what appeared on the 4NCL website three years ago.
Norms at the 4NCL - Neville Belinfante

28.04.2011 - Following the appeal for norm-seekers to contact me, the players listed below have responded and can achieve norms this weekend.
GM Norm: Jonathan Hawkins (Cheddleton), Yang-Fan Zhou (e2e4.org.uk), Andrew Ledger (Betsson.com) and John Cox (Barbican).
IM Norm: Yang-Fan Zhou (e2e4.org.uk), Laurence Webb (Betsson.com), David Ledger (Betsson.com), David Zakarian (Oxford), Chris Dorrington (Barbican), Darren Wheeler (the ADs), Ian Snape (the ADs), Sam Williams (Sambuca Sharks) and Peter Sowray (Wood Green, Hilsmark Kingfisher).
WIM Norm: Kanwal Bhatia (Barbican) and Sophie Tidman (Oxford).

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 10:13 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:I should think that there is every chance that this is the first time that a female player has made a ("male") title norm in 4NCL.
You would have to go back a few years, but did Harriet Hunt or Jovanka Houska get any of their Norms from the 4NCL?
99% sure not; admittedly on the basis that I think I would have remembered it, but I have quite an unusual memory regarding 4NCL.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 10:18 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: It is quite normal for them to need to be sure that their seeker will play a titled player or someone of a certan minimum rating.
The secrecy is something new and a retrograde step.

From Google, this is what appeared on the 4NCL website three years ago.
Norms at the 4NCL - Neville Belinfante

28.04.2011 - Following the appeal for norm-seekers to contact me, the players listed below have responded and can achieve norms this weekend.
GM Norm: Jonathan Hawkins (Cheddleton), Yang-Fan Zhou (e2e4.org.uk), Andrew Ledger (Betsson.com) and John Cox (Barbican).
IM Norm: Yang-Fan Zhou (e2e4.org.uk), Laurence Webb (Betsson.com), David Ledger (Betsson.com), David Zakarian (Oxford), Chris Dorrington (Barbican), Darren Wheeler (the ADs), Ian Snape (the ADs), Sam Williams (Sambuca Sharks) and Peter Sowray (Wood Green, Hilsmark Kingfisher).
WIM Norm: Kanwal Bhatia (Barbican) and Sophie Tidman (Oxford).
Well, that was better, but is it such a big deal? There is no question of anyone missing out, after all. I expect the arbiters are kept busy by constantly redoing the third disvision pairings after various teams continue to treat their appearance as optional instead of an implicit condition of entry.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Joey Stewart » Fri May 09, 2014 10:29 am

No wonder most norm seekers get their titles - if they get advance notice of their opponent they can prepare even better then ever (plus are already on good form that season).
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 10:48 am

John Saunders wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The reason I am interested in a full listing from the organisers is to see whether they are actively aware of all of them (the relevant officials have to be to sign off on the norm). The impression I got from the bit on the website ("Anyone else who thinks they may achieve a norm should contact [us]") was that if someone scored an unexpected IM norm but didn't contact the organisers, then that might cause problems.
I'm afraid this is yet another example of the forum putting two and two together and making five (as well as importuning people to supply information as if the forum had a statutory right to be informed). Although it's not something I'm directly involved in, I share a room with officials at the 4NCL and I am witness to the fact that they are diligent and proactive in determining norms and their achievement. I've also seen evidence that they communicate effectively with the players involved.

Via Twitter I've already communicated the fact that James Adair and Peter Roberson gain norms and completed their qualifications for the IM title. As far as I know (any mistakes here will be mine as I left before other 4NCL officials finished work on Monday), other IM norms were achieved by Alberto Suarez Real (Spain), Sue Maroroa (England – also a WGM norm), Adam Ashton (England) and Justin Tan (Australia). This info also appears in my weekend report, which has been completed and should be appearing soon on the website.
This is why I asked. The other norm I heard about is not named anywhere on your list, John. I don't (apologies for this) follow your Twitter feed. I was checking the 4NCL website in the days following the final weekend, expecting to see the information appear there. When it didn't, I thought I might raise the question here. Nowhere did I give the impression that I expected the information to be posted on the forum. I actually, believe me or not, tried explicitly to avoid giving that impression because I know some people in the past (you included) have been sensitive about that. I didn't want to bother individuals directly. But try and tip-toe around an issue and still you end up with people's feathers being ruffled. :roll:

I too was surprised to see the norm seekers not explicitly named. I was not playing in the final round and was watching the games and results come in. It would have been nice to follow the results of the norm seekers and see if they managed to get their norms or not. Not essential, but something that has been possible in previous years that wasn't possible this year.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 10:49 am

Joey Stewart wrote:No wonder most norm seekers get their titles - if they get advance notice of their opponent they can prepare even better then ever (plus are already on good form that season).
Well, the advance preparation point cuts both ways. What does help norm seekers in 4NCL is that they can be, and often (even usually) are, given extra Whites. I actually tend to think there is a gap in the norm regulations here.

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