Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Alan Walton
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Alan Walton » Fri May 09, 2014 11:00 am

Regarding Adam Ashton's norm, I didn't actually get any information from the 4NCL that he had a chance of a Norm

This could be down to him not playing Weekend 4 (only played 6 games), but we were aware his performance was good enough to be very close before the weekend started

On Sunday night we did make sure by seeing Matt himself to verify his needs, but I don't know if we didn't see them we would have been informed in a timely fashion before the last game (this was irrelevant as he only had to sit down against a 2300 for the norm)

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John Saunders
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by John Saunders » Fri May 09, 2014 12:16 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
This is why I asked.
Which you did three times.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The other norm I heard about is not named anywhere on your list, John.
So it may just be gossip.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: I don't (apologies for this) follow your Twitter feed.
No need to apologise but I tend not to post info on the forum as it can get lost amid a welter of gossip, rumour, speculation and the inevitable RdC guff about 'secrecy'.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Nowhere did I give the impression that I expected the information to be posted on the forum. I actually, believe me or not, tried explicitly to avoid giving that impression because I know some people in the past (you included) have been sensitive about that. I didn't want to bother individuals directly. But try and tip-toe around an issue and still you end up with people's feathers being ruffled. :roll:
Well, you did ask three times so I came away with the impression that you expected to see it here. Or have I made a wrong inference? Silly me.
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: I too was surprised to see the norm seekers not explicitly named. I was not playing in the final round and was watching the games and results come in. It would have been nice to follow the results of the norm seekers and see if they managed to get their norms or not. Not essential, but something that has been possible in previous years that wasn't possible this year.
It's nothing to do with me but no doubt the info will emerge before long. Patience is the best policy and certainly better than starting the rumour machine by hinting at 'problems'.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 12:33 pm

Thank you John. As you say, best not to quibble or argue on here, so I won't. I'll be patient or ask elsewhere. The only real problem I have are with the timing of details of norms achieved being published on the main 4NCL website. There should be no real need for it to take this long. I look forward to reading your report.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 12:41 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The only real problem I have are with the timing of details of norms achieved being published on the main 4NCL website.
That is why questions are being asked. Is it a change of policy that potential Norms will no longer be highlighted on the website before the weekend even starts? It's not as if English chess is so flush with potential new title holders that it can ignore those in with a shout.

J T Melsom
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by J T Melsom » Fri May 09, 2014 12:56 pm

The inquisition being carried out here is genuinely bonkers. Has the matter been broached with the 4NCL directly? And although speculation is largely futile, I would have thought the most likely explanation is that a change of personnel at 4NCL has caused things to be done slightly differently. It may well be that the change has left 4NCL volunteers more stretched than may otherwise be the case, in which case this may be something that either Chris or Roger can help to resolve, rather than simply create more noise.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 1:00 pm

It's not an inquisition. It should be possible to talk about things without being accused of that, surely? :?

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by J T Melsom » Fri May 09, 2014 1:08 pm

Chris, the inquiry is repetitive and directed at those who might be reading the forum rather than directly at those responsible for the running of 4NCL (who might coincidentaly be reading the forum) I am a volunteer administrator myself and regard it as a basic courtesy to raise specific issues directly with those responsible before indulging in speculation or discussion in other places. I don't know whether you do much volunteering, but that doesn't seem an unreasonable attitude to me.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 1:20 pm

Well, to me "inquisition" implies things like the Spanish Inquisition and really bad things. :D It is genuinely not a word I use lightly. I wouldn't ever accuse anyone who just asked a couple of questions over several days of carrying out an inquisition. I do get slightly annoyed at the instinctive "go ask them yourself" reaction. After several days, I don't think it is worth me doing that now (and may just annoy people further). As I said to John, I'll just be patient and wait.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 1:22 pm

J T Melsom wrote: the inquiry is repetitive and directed at those who might be reading the forum rather than directly at those responsible for the running of 4NCL
I think it's directed at John Saunders who appears to have been the publicist for this season's 4NCL and who sometimes annoys with his "nothing to do with you" tone. It's also directed at 4NCL arbiters who unlike their peers at other tournaments did not announce publicly who the Norm seekers were. I know the ECF Council approved the dumping of a President who wanted to improve the marketing of English chess, but suppressing all publicity of those aspiring to become leading players is going too far.

The 4NCL website as it currently stands gives a strange impression. All the technical data, the tables and almost all the pgns are present, along with the regular prompt write-ups from a couple of Division 3 squads. There's no headline though, telling those just passing through who actually won, who potentially gets demoted and which players got Norms or who have now achieved titles.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 1:25 pm

The official 4NCL twitter feed was last updated on 4 May. Not sure what is up with that? If I was on Twitter, I could tweet to them and ask?

EDIT: Roger, I do agree with John though that you are going too far. Some of your speculation is ridiculous. It is far more likely to be some unknown delay causing this (or lack of time or resources). Accusations of suppressing information is silly.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by J T Melsom » Fri May 09, 2014 1:31 pm

Roger/ Chris

If you don't like it then volunteer to change it or otherwise be a little more patient of volunteers. 2 weeks ago I had a very enjoyable time at the National Club. When I realised the final round was missing from the pgn download I sent a private message to the organisers and received a full and timely response, so direct contact can be effective. And as I have already suggest above the 4NCL matter is probably simply down to resourcing priorities or personnel changes/availaility. Hardly henious or signs of a conspiracy.

Inquisition does have other resonances than simply repeating onself, and others can judge whether this is the full Torquemada or the Monty Python version.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 2:15 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The official 4NCL twitter feed was last updated on 4 May. Not sure what is up with that? If I was on Twitter, I could tweet to them and ask?
I see John Saunders' report was announced on Twitter about 15 minutes after I said the above. The report is excellent (as always) and well worth reading:

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/rep5_1314.htm

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: It is far more likely to be some unknown delay causing this (or lack of time or resources).
Are you sure that it isn't an attitude that such details don't matter? There was another small point at the last weekend where standards appeared to have slipped. It used to be a common practice that a copy of the match sheet was placed next to the team card. This means that results can be filled in as the match progresses and so you don't have to rely on players using the White king/Black king/both Kings convention to signal game results. It also means you can see who is playing without making a detour to the atrium. This was absent at the final weekend in the main hall at least.

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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by John Upham » Fri May 09, 2014 2:28 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: There was another small point at the last weekend where standards appeared to have slipped. It used to be a common practice that a copy of the match sheet was placed next to the team card. This means that results can be filled in as the match progresses and so you don't have to rely on players using the White king/Black king/both Kings convention to signal game results. It also means you can see who is playing without making a detour to the atrium. This was absent at the final weekend in the main hall at least.
Did you go to the enormous trouble of mentioning this at the time (and something may have been done about it) ?

or

Was it better to wait after the fact and then have a pop?

Some serial complainants remind me of the "mind" set demonstrated

here

The possibility of saying or posting anything positive is quite beyond them.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 2:41 pm

John Upham wrote: Did you go to the enormous trouble of mentioning this at the time (and something may have been done about it) ?
Not being a match captain, I do not think I have any standing to complain about the matter. In any event I would have been too busy playing to start chasing arbiters. What happened in the third division regarding result sheets?

It is extra work to print and distribute extra copies of the pairings, so if a decision has been taken to discontinue this, an individual protest is unlikely to have much effect. In fairness, the results were being promptly updated on the website, but that isn't of use if you are still playing and concerned about tie break effects from other matches.

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