Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri May 09, 2014 2:56 pm

Probably just something that had to go due to the massive size of the current Div3. In Div3n they were updating the results on printed out match score cards on a wall as things progressed. Nice, but it'd have been insane to try that with so many matches!

Sounded like they might be considering taming Div3 at some point which would help.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 3:07 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Probably just something that had to go due to the massive size of the current Div3.
All that needs to happen is that an extra A4 sheet is printed for each match. You then put this in the vicinity of the games and leave the players or captains to fill in the results as games are finished. It's just the same principle as the match card used for league and county matches only with the names preprinted. It just adds to the presentation when you can see named who is playing in a match.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 3:29 pm

John Saunders wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The other norm I heard about is not named anywhere on your list, John.
So it may just be gossip.
Returning briefly to this point, not to argue, but to point out that the source for my information was the captain of the team involved. Quite why there was a need to speculate that it might be gossip, I'm not sure. Anyway, I've looked up the results in question, and it seems to check out (2466 TPR over 9 games, including 4 IMs and 2 FMs). Fingers crossed it is OK, though I have a horrible feeling that 1.44 might apply "a maximum of 2/3 of the opponents from one federation". Does that apply to the 4NCL?

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 09, 2014 3:41 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
John Saunders wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The other norm I heard about is not named anywhere on your list, John.
So it may just be gossip.
Returning briefly to this point, not to argue, but to point out that the source for my information was the captain of the team involved. Quite why there was a need to speculate that it might be gossip, I'm not sure. Anyway, I've looked up the results in question, and it seems to check out (2466 TPR over 9 games, including 4 IMs and 2 FMs). Fingers crossed it is OK, though I have a horrible feeling that 1.44 might apply "a maximum of 2/3 of the opponents from one federation". Does that apply to the 4NCL?
I believe not; national team competitions (and national individual competitions) can be exempted from nationality requirements. We have never had to worry about this (and we have achieved at least one norm in every season this century except two, one of which was the one just concluded).

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John Saunders
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by John Saunders » Fri May 09, 2014 3:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
J T Melsom wrote: the inquiry is repetitive and directed at those who might be reading the forum rather than directly at those responsible for the running of 4NCL
I think it's directed at John Saunders who appears to have been the publicist for this season's 4NCL and who sometimes annoys with his "nothing to do with you" tone.
Pure speculation and quite wrong. I am not the 4NCL publicist. I write reports and take photos. I have no editorial role at the 4NCL website nor do I have access to the 4NCL Twitter account.

As for "... who sometimes annoys..." - if I have managed to annoy you once or twice in the 45 years we've known each other, Roger, then my life won't have been wasted.
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri May 09, 2014 3:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:There was another small point at the last weekend where standards appeared to have slipped. It used to be a common practice that a copy of the match sheet was placed next to the team card. This means that results can be filled in as the match progresses and so you don't have to rely on players using the White king/Black king/both Kings convention to signal game results. It also means you can see who is playing without making a detour to the atrium. This was absent at the final weekend in the main hall at least.
The practice continued to be in evidence as normal in Div3, on all three days.

Brian Valentine
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri May 09, 2014 4:03 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
MartinCarpenter wrote:Probably just something that had to go due to the massive size of the current Div3.
All that needs to happen is that an extra A4 sheet is printed for each match. You then put this in the vicinity of the games and leave the players or captains to fill in the results as games are finished. It's just the same principle as the match card used for league and county matches only with the names preprinted. It just adds to the presentation when you can see named who is playing in a match.
I can have nothing but praise for the Division 3 control team on Monday. There were slips at all match tables for results to be input (some teams didn't bother) and a screen was available at the control desk with the latest internet results page. As someone who thought that the tie break would be required (thankfully not!) and wanted regular updates I found the team very helpful.

I think we should applaud the general improvement over recent in speed of showing results and publication of the game scores. These are what most of us want quickly.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri May 09, 2014 4:12 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
John Saunders wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote: The other norm I heard about is not named anywhere on your list, John.
So it may just be gossip.
Returning briefly to this point, not to argue, but to point out that the source for my information was the captain of the team involved. Quite why there was a need to speculate that it might be gossip, I'm not sure. Anyway, I've looked up the results in question, and it seems to check out (2466 TPR over 9 games, including 4 IMs and 2 FMs). Fingers crossed it is OK, though I have a horrible feeling that 1.44 might apply "a maximum of 2/3 of the opponents from one federation". Does that apply to the 4NCL?
The 4NCL contained 20+ non-English players from at least two different federations, of whom at least 10 were IMs or GMs, so a norm from it is valid even if the player doesn't get 2/3 of the opponents from one federation. Who is the player in question, anyway?

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri May 09, 2014 4:17 pm

The team slips in Div3 on the last weekend weren't always obvious, but I definitely saw some at times too. The others probably started out right but drifted off in various directions in the inevitable chaos :)

The people I thought sorry for were the people trying to keep the main room supplied with water! That really was an insane task. At least they worked out they were allowed to use tap water jugs on Monday. Doing it with bottled water like on the Sat/Sun seemed entirely insane really.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 4:21 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote: The 4NCL contained 20+ non-English players from at least two different federations, of whom at least 10 were IMs or GMs, so a norm from it is valid even if the player doesn't get 2/3 of the opponents from one federation.
Perhaps not in the first season, but that's been available right from the earliest days of the League twenty years ago.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri May 09, 2014 4:36 pm

Having looked at the results for the player in question, he quite clearly has enough titled opponents; the question is whether he actually got a 2466 TPR for norm purposes - it's not easy to determine from the match results whether the player's rating listed on the match sheet is the same as the rating used in the norm calculation.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 4:59 pm

That is confusing. The FIDE Handbook says:

"1.46: Rating of Opponents
1.46a: The Rating List in effect at the start of the tournament shall be used, see exception 1.15. [...]"

"1.15: In tournaments which last longer than 90 days, the opponents’ ratings and titles used shall be those applying when the games were played."

I can't remember whether it was always like that, or changed at some point.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:That is confusing. The FIDE Handbook says:
I suspect Jack's point may have been that the ratings on the results sheets are self selected given that teams can mix and match between FIDE Elos, national Elos and converted ECF. You could look up on the FIDE rating site for the first four weekends the actual FIDE Elos. The most recent weekend isn't available yet, but you could also obtain the end April ratings from the FIDE site.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 09, 2014 5:10 pm

So if I wanted to work it out properly, I'd have to look up the rating for each opponent for the month in which the 4NCL game took place (and ignore the hodge-podge of ratings on the team sheets). Eh, that's what we have arbiters and organisers for! :D

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Final weekend (2013-14 season)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 09, 2014 5:16 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:So if I wanted to work it out properly, I'd have to look up the rating for each opponent for the month in which the 4NCL game took place
You would find the ratings conveniently tabulated for you on the FIDE rating page of the player.

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