Division 1

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
John McKenna
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Re: Division 1

Post by John McKenna » Mon May 02, 2016 10:02 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:We (Barbican) play ECC every now and then. We look more likely to take our place this year than in most recent seasons. I share Richard's doubts about Guildford and Wood Green, though.
For interest, why is that? Is it the expense, the fact that some teams are simply too strong to compete with or have too much money?
Welsh teams of no great strength have regularly travelled to the Euro Clubs Cup, if memory serves me. How have they managed it, I wonder?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Richard Bates
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Re: Division 1

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 02, 2016 10:30 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:We (Barbican) play ECC every now and then. We look more likely to take our place this year than in most recent seasons. I share Richard's doubts about Guildford and Wood Green, though.
For interest, why is that? Is it the expense, the fact that some teams are simply too strong to compete with or have too much money?
Welsh teams of no great strength have regularly travelled to the Euro Clubs Cup, if memory serves me. How have they managed it, I wonder?
The same way the English ones have.

To answer Mick, it's no great mystery. The best (professional) teams in the 4NCL have generally had individuals putting in substantial amounts of money to fund them. Those same individuals have previously rarely been interested in putting in additional money to send the same players to the European Club Cup. Sending a professional team to the ECC is not at all cheap (possibly not significantly lower than the cost of an entire 4NCL season), and they would be doing so without any real prospect of winning. Bear in mind that the occasional super strong team that is occasionally put out in the 4NCL is usually only for one or two matches. Another tangential factor is that many of the best players in the 4NCL (especially the non-English players) will play in a number of European leagues and may well be contracted to other teams in the ECC.

So the teams that go are generally amateur teams largely self funded (albeit when Betsson/Blackthorne Russia have gone we have had some generous support to assist us)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division 1

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 02, 2016 11:36 pm

John McKenna wrote: Welsh teams of no great strength have regularly travelled to the Euro Clubs Cup, if memory serves me. How have they managed it, I wonder?
There's an automatic qualification for winners provided there's a national league or cup competition.

So that deals with the "how to qualify" issue. The "how to finance it" issue relies on the club or players.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division 1

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 02, 2016 11:47 pm

Richard Bates wrote: So the teams that go are generally amateur teams largely self funded
There's a rule which says teams have to be in the "top half" to qualify. In the context of the 4NCL this has been interpreted to mean teams qualifying for the Championship pool. In practice they work downwards until three teams are determined that want to take up the place. In recent years, it's been Barbican, White Rose, Blackthorne Russia and Cheddleton who have been up for the challenge. The disbanded Jutes of Kent as well.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Tue May 03, 2016 7:56 am

Not much to add to Richard's explanation why Guildford and Wood Green have never played. White Rose has been by far the most consistent entrant in recent years. I don't remember anyone going in recent years who did not finish in the top half of the first division of 4NCL, but I wouldn't be so surprised if this has happened. Every country can send one team, so the rules only apply to allocate two or three teams per country. Unless the rules have recently changed, we can enter three teams provided they finish in the top half of a national league in which at least 20 GMs play.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Division 1

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Tue May 03, 2016 8:02 am

John McKenna wrote:Jonathan, that will teach me not to rely on outsourced info. I agree that numerically I was "quite wrong" but the biggest discrepancy - apart from the last one below* was 22 rating points. Hardly a material fact in the matter in question.

Bd. 1 Black is 2518 not 2520, i.e -2
Bd. 2 W is +2 and B -7
* Bd. 3 See below...
Bd. 4 B is +8
Bd. 5 W is +11 and B -2
Bd. 6 W is -22 and B -11
Bd. 7 B is -1
Bd. 8 W is -6 and B +15

* Bd. 3 I did have quite (the) wrong (way round at 2452 - 2359).

The 4NCL results site has bd. 3 at 2365 - 2456, which also seems not to be quite right since the current ratings of the two players involved are 2349 and 2450, respectively.

[Also not quite right on the 4NCL results - on bd. 7 Black is 2377 (not 2385), and on bd. 8 W is 2032 (not 2024) and Black 2122 (not 2107) according to FIDE.]

Please forgive any errors in the above, and let's not struggle further with comprehending the mysteries since I was just making an observation about the way it looks to me as a rank outsider.
Hi John

No problem, of course. I think I was trying to work out what interested you so much about the pairings/ratings of that particular match, but not to worry.

The venerable Howard Staunton "he probably would have been world champion so let's just call him world champion" Society have castigated Jacob Aagaard and me for our draw yesterday :lol: :lol:

Matthew Parry
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Re: Division 1

Post by Matthew Parry » Tue May 03, 2016 9:07 am

John McKenna wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:We (Barbican) play ECC every now and then. We look more likely to take our place this year than in most recent seasons. I share Richard's doubts about Guildford and Wood Green, though.
For interest, why is that? Is it the expense, the fact that some teams are simply too strong to compete with or have too much money?
Welsh teams of no great strength have regularly travelled to the Euro Clubs Cup, if memory serves me. How have they managed it, I wonder?
I imagine the difference is that the teams that are run on professional basis can afford to pay for NCL appearances but will not/cannot pay for a full week long event, with accommodation that is more expensive, plus transport etc. Plus for those relying on advertising their sponsors, they may consider an event in, for example, Macedonia, to be less useful than an all British event. Whereas for the amateur teams it is nothing more than an extension of the 4NCL/Welsh Premier League; like any holiday the only questions are affordability plus time off work.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Division 1

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue May 03, 2016 9:08 am

This weekend's games were based on the April ratings, starting as they did on April 30. The FIDE website will have the May ratings. That will probably explain the discrepancies.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division 1

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue May 03, 2016 9:31 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Not much to add to Richard's explanation why Guildford and Wood Green have never played. White Rose has been by far the most consistent entrant in recent years. I don't remember anyone going in recent years who did not finish in the top half of the first division of 4NCL, but I wouldn't be so surprised if this has happened. Every country can send one team, so the rules only apply to allocate two or three teams per country. Unless the rules have recently changed, we can enter three teams provided they finish in the top half of a national league in which at least 20 GMs play.
The tournament organisers might be flexible on this, it's amazing how often a binding rule can be relaxed when mention is made that an additional entry means more money for the organiser and the hotel :)

Alan Walton
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Re: Division 1

Post by Alan Walton » Tue May 03, 2016 9:45 am

One of the main aims for 3Cs is to try and qualify for this Euro Club Cup, we thought we might have had a good chance this year before the Paris bombings scuppered our chances of qualifying into the championships pool, hopefully next season

However it is unlikely we will bring paid players into this and play the "normal" club players who are eligible (played during the season)

John McKenna
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Re: Division 1

Post by John McKenna » Tue May 03, 2016 10:46 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote: Hi John

No problem, of course. I think I was trying to work out what interested you so much about the pairings/ratings of that particular match, but not to worry.

The venerable Howard Staunton "he probably would have been world champion so let's just call him world champion" Society have castigated Jacob Aagaard and me for our draw yesterday :lol: :lol:
Thanks for your reply, Jonathan.

I was interested because I played George O'Toole when he was a junior.

That led me to look at the team orders and pairings, which I should know by now work in mysterious ways.

PS I wouldn't worry too much about the venerable HS Soc. They'll never get round to the idea of the grandmaster draw.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Division 1

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue May 03, 2016 10:56 am

How close was the demotion pool in the end? I see that South Wales Dragons lost 3-5 in the final round, Grantham Sharks beat Oxford to stay up, and the Spirit of Atticus match against Cambridge University 1 looked desperately close (4.5-3.5 to SoA), with both teams going down, but a small swing either way might have seen one of those teams pip South Wales Dragons to the final survivors spot (if CU1 had won, they would have stayed up, I think).

Mick Norris
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Re: Division 1

Post by Mick Norris » Tue May 03, 2016 11:22 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:How close was the demotion pool in the end? I see that South Wales Dragons lost 3-5 in the final round, Grantham Sharks beat Oxford to stay up, and the Spirit of Atticus match against Cambridge University 1 looked desperately close (4.5-3.5 to SoA), with both teams going down, but a small swing either way might have seen one of those teams pip South Wales Dragons to the final survivors spot (if CU1 had won, they would have stayed up, I think).
yes, CU just needed a win, SoA needed a bigger win (or a bigger loss for SWD)
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division 1

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon May 09, 2016 8:23 am

Alan Walton wrote:One of the main aims for 3Cs is to try and qualify for this Euro Club Cup, we thought we might have had a good chance this year before the Paris bombings scuppered our chances of qualifying into the championships pool, hopefully next season

However it is unlikely we will bring paid players into this and play the "normal" club players who are eligible (played during the season)
Do we know which teams are interested in the Euro Club Cup? Guildford, Cheddleton & Barbican have first refusal on the places and then Wood Green, White Rose and Blackthorne so I suspect that would suffice to fill the three places.

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Re: Division 1

Post by Mick Norris » Mon May 09, 2016 8:33 am

I assume from Jonathan's comments up thread that Barbican are considering it, and I assume Cheddleton will go - White Rose clearly want to go
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