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Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 5:56 pm
by Joey Stewart
So, assuming the same teams stay in the league next season, which teams are going to be coming up and going down? There seemed to be some uncertainty as to how things would work with northern teams no longer being part of division 3.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:25 pm
by Mick Norris
As far as I can tell, it is as follows with teams in red going up and teams in green going down (subject to actual entries next season):
2016.05 PROMOTION RELEGATION.xls
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Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:00 pm
by MartinCarpenter
NE1 too? At this rate we might as well start promoting teams straight to Div1 from 3N :)

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 12:26 am
by Roger de Coverly
Mick Norris wrote:As far as I can tell, it is as follows with teams in red going up and teams in green going down (subject to actual entries next season):
On the face of it, all four relegated teams from Division 2 will elect for Div 3S. Four teams from Div 3S drop to Div 4S. The two promoted teams from Div 3S are balanced by two promoted teams from Div 4S.

This is all subject to teams dropping out, or moving north.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:37 am
by LawrenceCooper
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:As far as I can tell, it is as follows with teams in red going up and teams in green going down (subject to actual entries next season):
On the face of it, all four relegated teams from Division 2 will elect for Div 3S. Four teams from Div 3S drop to Div 4S. The two promoted teams from Div 3S are balanced by two promoted teams from Div 4S.

This is all subject to teams dropping out, or moving north.
Ashfield & Breadsall are moving north, I'll put the question to my squad but suspect I will get half voting for the north & half for the south :)

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 9:21 am
by Mick Norris
LawrenceCooper wrote:Ashfield & Breadsall are moving north, I'll put the question to my squad but suspect I will get half voting for the north & half for the south :)
Both A&B teams?

You could always put 1 team in Div 3 N and 1 in Div 3 S - depends if you want to try for promotion, or are just gaining experience

As I said above, it does depend on entries - I wonder if e2e4 will return next season, and if so what division their teams will be in

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:14 am
by Neil Graham
Yes, both Ashfield-Breadsall teams will be entering Division Three (North) next year. When the two rounds at Wokefield Park increased to four rounds the decision was definitely made to transfer. Four of our team members played at the 4NCL Wakefield Congress and were very impressed with the accessibility and conditions at the venue. There is no sense in trying to maintain squads at two separate venues; having two teams at the same venue does increase flexibility in team selection & rotation.

As regards e2-e4, Ashfield-Breadsall entered a second team this year and was able to offer places to six e2-e4 players who were displaced by the non-appearance of their previous team. As far as I can see the matter of e2-e4 was discussed at some length at the start of the season and I have no reason to think the situation has changed since then.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 10:21 am
by LawrenceCooper
Mick Norris wrote:
LawrenceCooper wrote:Ashfield & Breadsall are moving north, I'll put the question to my squad but suspect I will get half voting for the north & half for the south :)
Both A&B teams?

You could always put 1 team in Div 3 N and 1 in Div 3 S - depends if you want to try for promotion, or are just gaining experience

As I said above, it does depend on entries - I wonder if e2e4 will return next season, and if so what division their teams will be in
As always, player preference will dictate what I do, probably those in the Midlands will tip the balance one way or the other. From a selfish perspective there's less mileage for me going north but a number of my southern based players were very good in travelling to Telford so I wouldn't want to test their resolve further by offering them trips to Bolton. Glancing at train times/costs compared to Telford the travel time is similar (one change) but the cost is higher.

Experience for juniors and opportunities for female players (12 this season, 14 last) remains the priority but I won't deny some disappointment at 15/22 last year and 16/22 this year not being enough points to allow the players a chance to test themselves in Division 2.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 12:58 pm
by Mick Norris
Neil Graham wrote:Yes, both Ashfield-Breadsall teams will be entering Division Three (North) next year.
You will be very welcome

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 9:47 pm
by Tim Harding
Can somebody please indicate what typical/max/min ratings (FIDE) are for the various boards in Division 3 (North)? Also are there requirements for junior/female players to be included?

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Tue May 10, 2016 10:10 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Tim Harding wrote:Can somebody please indicate what typical/max/min ratings (FIDE) are for the various boards in Division 3 (North)?
Given that teams are formed from affinity groups rather than clubs, some squads can be exceedingly flat in rating with no more than 80 Elo points across the whole team. In general, the players in the Divisions 3 are those who would not feel out of place in an Open, so mostly 1900 plus. The detail results are on the 4NCL site. IMs have been sighted on top boards.

Tim Harding wrote: Also are there requirements for junior/female players to be included?

Not in the divisions 3, it's any six players, subject to the rules on registration before appearance.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 2:44 pm
by MartinCarpenter
Mostly very flat teams in Div3N at least. Also very solid ones. Obviously Div3 has Div4 to collect its properly weak teams, but even Div3N only has one or two truly weak teams in it nowadays.

Typical team ~190,180,180,170,160,150.

If thinking of entering a squad, the big thing would I think be trying to get the bottom boards up to strength. I'd worry more about a ~130 grade on boards 5/6 than a 175 on board 1. Bradford DCA B and Manchester 2 both finished halfway up fielding no one above ~180 all season, but also no one below 150/160.

The only teams with multiple 2200+ players in 3N have been those very clearly getting themselves promoted - Spirit of Atticus, Alba and North East. They've tended to drop to ~190 on the bottom boards, as you'd expect of people building squads to cope as 8 players in Div1/2.

Bradford DCA A got themselves promoted this season with a lot of players +-2100, 2000 at the weakest.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 4:35 pm
by Tim Harding
Thanks for the info, Martin and Roger.

We don't use BCF style gradings here so I have had to convert your figures to Elo by the BCF x8 +600 formula which is perhaps inexact?

I had been vaguely thinking about trying to field an Irish team for the 4NCL but with the extra travelling expenses we would have, I think it would only happen if we could recruit a few of the Irish players who live in England. (I see Paul Wallace already plays for a team.)

Of course a few of our best players feature on teams in Division 1 so I wouldn't be expecting them to play for us.

Is Division 3 rated by FIDE? If not there would be little point in it for us.

Unfortunately, I see now that the first weekend in Wakefield clashes with the World Senior Individual Championships which probably rules out for rounds 1 and 2 two or three of the players who could be interested. There would at least need to be somebody (not me) keen on captaining and organising the logistics who would be free to go that weekend.
The 4NCL might be good experience for some of our promising juniors if there was a parent or two keen on doing the hard practical work.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 7:35 pm
by LawrenceCooper
Tim Harding wrote:Thanks for the info, Martin and Roger.

Is Division 3 rated by FIDE? If not there would be little point in it for us.
All divisions are FIDE rated.

Re: Promotions and relegations

Posted: Wed May 11, 2016 8:31 pm
by MartinCarpenter
They are, in principle but I couldn't recommend them as a place for people who care about their FIDE grades :)

The grades are just too random overall, and a bit low in general. The conversion formula now seems to be ECF x 7.5 + 700.

For illustration, Jorvik's active players are 190/2090, 182/2063, 180/1865, 176/1888, 167/1997, 152/1858, 144/1759, 134/1659 and 125/1582.

Think its a decent sample - some are accurate, some somewhat undergraded, no one overgraded. (the 167 going to ~2000 really benefits from the extra time!). Even that 2090 of mine is based off a >200 ECF 4NCL grading performance.