Div 3 North 2016-17

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
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Neil Graham
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Neil Graham » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:05 pm

Mick Norris wrote:18 is impressive and makes the swiss a little easier

An even number is good too
It makes the Swiss easier than 16 teams. However it will still mean that by the late rounds teams at the top will be meeting teams at the bottom; my view is that this will lead to some pretty unedifying chess.

Mike Truran
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:16 pm

The website showed an update of the entries page today - 1st October - so one might have assumed it was updated on the basis of entries received by the dreaded 30th September date
That update was based on what I sent Steve on the 29th. So it didn't reflect the usual torrent of payments on the 30th. I''ll be getting the final list to Steve later this weekend once I surface for air.

Still waiting for more detail on Hounds and Bears. All we know is that it's a joint venture between Solihull CC and Warwick Uni CC. No idea though which club provides the hounds and which club the bears. :?

David Pardoe
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by David Pardoe » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:03 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:18 is impressive and makes the swiss a little easier

An even number is good too
It makes the Swiss easier than 16 teams. However it will still mean that by the late rounds teams at the top will be meeting teams at the bottom; my view is that this will lead to some pretty unedifying chess.
I`m not sure about that Neil.. even the perceived `bottom teams` could produce some dogged resistance and gritty performances, and will not want to get minced by anyone. Upsets could be even better, in nerve gangling finishes...!!
Just look at the entries for the Crewe congress `Open section`... One bold fellow from Chorlton, graded 74, has decided to chance his arm and entered !! (Unless its a grading error, he could find himself on the receiving end of some batterings....or maybe not??!!). Chorlton have been known before for producing some surprising player performances...certainly in county chess events..

Also, if say the first 4 or 5 rounds are `seeded` to keep the top teams apart, that should leave room for some good top clashes in the latter stages.
As long as the top teams all play a balanced mix of opponents, I`m sure some fine chessing encounters should be in prospect..
BRING BACK THE BCF

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:16 pm

Ah, well. Google can help with the bears :)

Image

The elephants would perhaps be more fun, but Warwickshire are always bears so.... There are at least two Warwick Uni old boys I know of in 3N: Me and Martyn. I can think of a few others in higher divisions, not sure if there's anyone else in 3N. The University chess club does tend to be fairly good with how strong maths/science is at Warwick and Solihull seem to have some good players so they should do fine.
(Actually the list for the Uni on the ecfgrading list is awfully good just now! As ever with students it'll depend on organisation of course but they could quite easily be promotion candidates.).

As for the swiss, I'm not sure if the bottom teams will be able to present dogged resistance - there'll be a few teams that the top teams will expect to beat quite easily. About 2/3rds of the division should be of a very similar sort of strength though so it should work OK with 18 teams.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:07 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:The University chess club does tend to be fairly good with how strong maths/science is at Warwick and Solihull seem to have some good players so they should do fine.
Marginally surprising that they chose to venture north, rather than south to Reading for Wokefield Park or west to Telford. If they aren't travelling by car, perhaps the need for a taxi from Reading put them off. Division 3S is a pit of snakes with almost every team able to muster 6*2000 or better.

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:33 pm

Reading and Telford or Wakefield and Bolton - no contest really :D
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:58 pm

Alan Walton wrote:After the e2e4 late payment of entry fees and subsequent removal from the league; I suspect that if any of the team Neil listed haven't paid their fee there will be no option other than match the events which happened with e2e4
I had confirmed by email before the deadline both confirmation of our entries and that we would pay our entry fee by bank transfer. It was solely the payment that was after 30 September. Rather than setting a precedent I sincerely hope that they 4NCL do not take the same steps this time and judging by Mike's message they won't. I think that's a good thing.
Mike Truran wrote:All the teams have either paid or explicitly confirmed by email that they will be settling up in the next day or so.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:36 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: I had confirmed by email before the deadline both confirmation of our entries and that we would pay our entry fee by bank transfer. It was solely the payment that was after 30 September. Rather than setting a precedent I sincerely hope that they 4NCL do not take the same steps this time and judging by Mike's message they won't. I think that's a good thing.
The forum was speculating within days if not hours of the deadline that e2e4 were not entering. Conformation of this took another two weeks. It's teams offered reprieves from relegation who are the most put out. If they remain in division 1 they may need to recruit a female player and if division 2, they need another player and another player or junior player, along with having hotel and travel arrangements disrupted.

Here's last year's thread
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... =4ncl+e2e4

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:08 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote: I had confirmed by email before the deadline both confirmation of our entries and that we would pay our entry fee by bank transfer. It was solely the payment that was after 30 September. Rather than setting a precedent I sincerely hope that they 4NCL do not take the same steps this time and judging by Mike's message they won't. I think that's a good thing.
The forum was speculating within days if not hours of the deadline that e2e4 were not entering. Conformation of this took another two weeks. It's teams offered reprieves from relegation who are the most put out. If they remain in division 1 they may need to recruit a female player and if division 2, they need another player and another player or junior player, along with having hotel and travel arrangements disrupted.

Here's last year's thread
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... =4ncl+e2e4
Interesting, thanks. I hadn't seen that before. Here's my email to Mike
On 26 September 2015 at 19:31, Sean Hewitt wrote: wrote: I think we will have 4 teams this year. Missing out on div 3 has been awkward.
Confirmation of receipt was 30 September 2015 at 13:11. That's of no importance now. Let's focus on this year.

Neil Graham
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:23 pm

David Pardoe wrote:
Neil Graham wrote:
Mick Norris wrote:18 is impressive and makes the swiss a little easier

An even number is good too
It makes the Swiss easier than 16 teams. However it will still mean that by the late rounds teams at the top will be meeting teams at the bottom; my view is that this will lead to some pretty unedifying chess.
I`m not sure about that Neil.. even the perceived `bottom teams` could produce some dogged resistance and gritty performances, and will not want to get minced by anyone. Upsets could be even better, in nerve gangling finishes...!!
Just look at the entries for the Crewe congress `Open section`... One bold fellow from Chorlton, graded 74, has decided to chance his arm and entered !! (Unless its a grading error, he could find himself on the receiving end of some batterings....or maybe not??!!). Chorlton have been known before for producing some surprising player performances...certainly in county chess events..

Also, if say the first 4 or 5 rounds are `seeded` to keep the top teams apart, that should leave room for some good top clashes in the latter stages.
As long as the top teams all play a balanced mix of opponents, I`m sure some fine chessing encounters should be in prospect..
It would be difficult to devise a system that kept the top teams apart for the first four or five rounds if it was a Swiss.

However I have given some thought to this and suggest the following.

The teams are seeded (as last year based on performance/ratings) and the first five rounds are based on an all-play-all system of three sets of six teams, so (for example) Each group would have one team from Seeds 1-3; 4-6; 7-9; 10-12; 13-15 & 16-18. After these five rounds the remaining six rounds would be a Swiss. This would then keep the major players apart until Round Six and ensure that from then on each match ought to be closely contested.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:52 am

Makes quite a bit of sense. Or you could just force top/bottom half match ups for the first few rounds then start the swiss whenever.

That Irish team perhaps excepted (too strong), I think there'll be ~12 teams who can all get plausibly close to the strongest teams and are very close to each other so maybe a swiss will work out OK.

Mick Norris
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:22 pm

Do you really want 2 relative mismatches on the first weekend?

It might make a difference which weekends teams meet e.g. Manchester v Bradford, to pick a random example, might favour Manchester (in terms of team strength) at Bolton rather than at Wakefield?

A normal swiss would have a maximum number of 5 teams on 100% after the first weekend, and 2 after the second weekend, so the top 2 meet in round 5 of 11 - in Neil's example, there would be a maximum of 3 teams on 100% after round 5, so the top 2 might meet later in round 7 of 11

I think the main thing is that the promotion contenders all meet each other, but I do get the idea of avoiding mismatches on the final weekend

The simple maths is that each team meets 11 of other 17 i.e. they avoid only 6 teams
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:07 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
The simple maths is that each team meets 11 of other 17 i.e. they avoid only 6 teams
There is a method which might produce plausible pairings for the whole season. Take the top 6 of each squad, pair the first round on normal seeded principles. Take the match result as determined by the relative Elo ratings. Pair for round 2 based on the theoretical round 1 results. Repeat until you want to return to a true Swiss or the end of season. There's past precedent for 4NCL divisions to have 14 to 18 teams over eleven rounds. The late Richard Furness worked something out.

David Pardoe
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by David Pardoe » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:37 pm

With 18 teams you might split them into two `all play all` sections of 9 teams... then finish with a three round conventional Swiss.

It should be fine provided the seedings are reasonably OK, and the split is fairly balanced....and should give all teams a fairly even range of competition.
Remember...this is a league, so this semi league style format should hold good.

And it would make for an exciting final weekend...
BRING BACK THE BCF

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:42 pm

David Pardoe wrote:With 18 teams you might split them into two `all play all` sections of 9 teams... then finish with a three round conventional Swiss.
That would leave two teams without a match every round though and take nine rounds to complete.

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