Div 3 North 2016-17

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Ian Thompson
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:12 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
IM Jack Rudd wrote: Amateur teams in the 4NCL don't have that level of power over their players.
In the 4NCL, lack of relegation from Division 3 North and Division 4 removes incentives to play.
The 4NCL rules imply that it's alright to default matches in divisions run as a swiss so long as adequate notice is given, so it's not surprising that some teams do this. Whether it should be alright or not is a different question.

AustinElliott
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:01 pm
Location: North of England
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by AustinElliott » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:41 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:It isn't usually a problem for local chess leagues, where local pride can come into play.
Well... I haven't seen the actual statistics, but I have heard a lot of people in the Manchester League saying they think defaults have become more common in the last 3 or 4 years. Would be interested to hear if other local Leagues have the same feeling. Fixture congestion is one thing people blame for this (many clubs in the Manchester area play in two different local Leagues, each of which also typically has a Cup competition), plus simply player availability. My subjective impression is that defaults get more common in the later part of the season - although that may be because, if a captain can't raise a team in the first half of the season, the match tends to get postponed to later in the season. Of course, that does make late-season fixture congestion worse..! I also have the sense (somewhat borne out by our club stats) that 'club stalwarts' who play twenty or more League games a (winter) season are getting less common, perhaps also a reflection of people being busier.

Tim Harding
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Tim Harding » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 pm

David Robertson wrote:Worrying signs for 4NCL with the withdrawal of House & Bears. I've no idea what the specific reasons might be, but I speculate on the generality. Apologies if I'm wide of the mark. Though my general point holds.

H & B are a fairly strong squad; hence committed players, not dilettantes. Not so much dissimilar from my own 'B' squad. Yet they no longer have a serious chance of promotion this year. The competition signs them up to a largely non-competitive weekend over three days in a drab dump like Wakefield; requires them to stay; and pumps them for £110 in accommodation plus another £50 or more in expenses. No fault of the 4NCL as such. But from an individual's perspective, that's a game fee/unit cost of £50+ for a pointless game of chess each day over a long Spring weekend. Add in the opportunity costs of time expended here, and not in the garden, with family, whatever, and it becomes expensive. Moreover, unlike squads living nearby the venue, they can't reduce expense by travelling home. So I sympathise...
That was a good moan! It is a lot more expensive for the two Irish teams. If we offered to stage one of the weekends in the Dublin area, would the English players come over? I expect there would be howls of protest and it wouldn't happen?
Tim Harding
Historian and Kibitzer

Author of 'British Chess Literature to 1914', Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Mick Norris
Posts: 7416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:45 am

We have entered an event where we know now next season the dates and venues; if they were moved to a different venue, especially in a different country, that wouldn't be on

If Mike moved a Div3N weekend to the IoM or even Dublin, that would possibly be nicer than Wakefield & Blackrod
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Robertson
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by David Robertson » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:47 pm

Tim Harding wrote:That was a good moan! It is a lot more expensive for the two Irish teams
That's because of this

Martin Carpenter
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:42 pm

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Martin Carpenter » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:49 pm

Only the one 2600 for Manx today it seems :) (Dietmar on 3, then Ottosen etc.).

Gonzaga seemingly defaulting on 6, so I guess they've given up on promotion for the year.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Alan Walton » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:53 pm

Martin Carpenter wrote:Only the one 2600 for Manx today it seems :) (Dietmar on 3, then Ottosen etc.).

Gonzaga seemingly defaulting on 6, so I guess they've given up on promotion for the year.
That's a bit presumptuous, if you look at this forum David Murray has been trying to find a player due to a last minute unforeseen withdrawal

There 5 playing is still a strong team

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:12 pm

The default was not real.

The correct pairing was published about 5 minutes later once the substitute had a FIN. Default was put in with both teams aware of the situation rather than the withdrawn player being named (a blank was not possible with the software).

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2434
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:12 pm

Ok :) Good to see them still trying of course. Some chance of Manx slipping up - they nearly had another +3 top, -3 bottom match today.

Jorvik have gone Manchester 4, now Manchester 3 and I think we're legally allowed Manchester 2 on Monday. It'd be tidy, which I doubt the rest of the draw is going to be!

Manchester 1 now needing 0.5/2 to be sure of promotion.

Tim Harding
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Tim Harding » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:18 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Manchester 1 now needing 0.5/2 to be sure of promotion.
I don't understand that comment; surely they are already promoted so long as they don't default any games in rounds 10 and 11?
Manchester 1 has 18 MP already and Gonzaga etc cannot equal that.
Tim Harding
Historian and Kibitzer

Author of 'British Chess Literature to 1914', Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1414
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:39 pm

Gonzaga can go to 18. They can get 4 points tomorrow if they score sufficient points in the second half of their two triangular matches. That would take them to 16 with potentially another 2 points on Monday.

The normal triangular matches aggregate the match score over 2 days. The exception will be the Monday triangular which will be 1 point for a win and 0.5 for a drawn half match.

Tim Harding
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Tim Harding » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:43 pm

Thanks for explaining the rule. I thought it was just 1 point at stake in each half-match today.

I will correct what I wrote on the Irish board.
Tim Harding
Historian and Kibitzer

Author of 'British Chess Literature to 1914', Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Tim Harding
Posts: 1758
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Tim Harding » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:49 pm

If I understand what Alex has said, Gonzaga need to score 1.5/3 against Enniscorthy tomorrow and 2.5/3 against 3Cs2.

Realistically this will only be possible if they have a stronger substitute available and are allowed to bring him/her in.

Does anyone know if they do have such a sub?
Tim Harding
Historian and Kibitzer

Author of 'British Chess Literature to 1914', Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Mick Norris
Posts: 7416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:43 am

31 Cheddleton 2 - - - Manchester Manticores 1
32 Manchester Manticores 2 - - - Manx Liberty
33 Jorvik - - - Manchester Manticores 3
34 Ashfield Breadsall 1 - - - Holmes Chapel
35 Manchester Manticores 4 - - - Ashfield Breadsall 2
36 Bradford DCA Knights C - - - Bradford DCA Knights B
37 3Cs 3 - - - Spirit of Atticus B
50 Gonzaga 1 - 2 3Cs 2
51 3Cs 2 1 - 2 Enniscorthy
52 Enniscorthy 1 - 2 Gonzaga

Division 3 North

P W D L GP Pts
Manchester Manticores 1 9 9 0 0 40 18
Manx Liberty 9 7 1 1 35½ 15
Gonzaga 8 6 0 2 35 12
Cheddleton 2 9 5 1 3 28 11
Jorvik 9 4 3 2 27½ 11
Manchester Manticores 2 9 5 0 4 28 10
Hounds and Bears 8 4 1 3 27 9
Ashfield Breadsall 1 9 3 2 4 25½ 8
3Cs 2 8 3 2 3 25½ 8
Ashfield Breadsall 2 9 3 2 4 25 8
Bradford DCA Knights B 9 3 1 5 26 7
Holmes Chapel 9 3 1 5 25 7
Spirit of Atticus B 9 3 1 5 24 7
Manchester Manticores 4 9 2 3 4 21½ 7
Enniscorthy 8 3 1 4 18 7
Manchester Manticores 3 9 1 3 5 21 5
Bradford DCA Knights C 9 1 2 6 18½ 4
3Cs 3 7 1 0 6 11 2

So, MM1 need a draw today to be certain of promotion, and a win to be certain of the title
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Mick Norris
Posts: 7416
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Div 3 North 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:48 am

David Robertson wrote:Worrying signs for 4NCL with the withdrawal of House & Bears. I've no idea what the specific reasons might be, but I speculate on the generality. Apologies if I'm wide of the mark. Though my general point holds.

H & B are a fairly strong squad; hence committed players, not dilettantes. Not so much dissimilar from my own 'B' squad. Yet they no longer have a serious chance of promotion this year. The competition signs them up to a largely non-competitive weekend over three days in a drab dump like Wakefield; requires them to stay; and pumps them for £110 in accommodation plus another £50 or more in expenses. No fault of the 4NCL as such. But from an individual's perspective, that's a game fee/unit cost of £50+ for a pointless game of chess each day over a long Spring weekend. Add in the opportunity costs of time expended here, and not in the garden, with family, whatever, and it becomes expensive. Moreover, unlike squads living nearby the venue, they can't reduce expense by travelling home. So I sympathise. We're hitting a similar problem, though committed not to default. But we're struggling these days.

It needs thinking about
Good atmosphere yesterday, and good to see Gonzaga finding a late substitute; 3Cs 3 were 2 players short due to the ridiculous scheduling of a junior event (Megafinal?) to clash, ut I understand will be at full strength again today and tomorrow

I left home the first time yesterday at 8:15 am and got back the second time at 10:30 pm, driving over 150 miles on the day, and playing a not very good game of chess in the process; was it worth it? Yes, to be there when our first team all but secured promotion
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Post Reply