Division Two 2016-17

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
David Robertson
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by David Robertson » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:22 pm

Rhys Cumming wrote:the precarious situation of The ADs in pool A is interesting, since they have beaten most of the 'good teams' and lost to the 'bad teams'....If The ADs go into the top pool, they will take with them 5/6 matchpoints and presumably have a very good chance of going up
Yes, I've had my eye on this situation for a while now (for obvious reasons!). And I can see why Rhys and colleagues would have an interest too. It is an anomaly of the Pool system; and by no means the first time it's appeared. Brown Jack suffered rough justice a few seasons back; Oxford too, iirc.

But it may sort itself out. Pool B is settled with one round to go; and it looks far the stronger. So the ADs will need to play well if they make Pool C. And we know SM can play well.

As for Alan's point about a widening gap, I think there is room for a discussion about this. Our one experience of Div 1 has convinced us, were it needed, that the gap between 'good amateur' and 'pro' is vast - too vast to be closed competitively. Some weekends are a write-off. We're still receiving therapy for a [3 - 13] thrashing a year ago. SWD beat that this weekend, getting hammered [1 - 14]. Not fun

User avatar
Mike W. Richardt
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:37 am
Location: Abu Dhabi & Taunton
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Mike W. Richardt » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:56 pm

Rhys Cumming wrote:Apologies in advance for the inevitable rehashing of pool vs. all play all league structure debate that will likely follow, but the precarious situation of The ADs in pool A is interesting, since they have beaten most of the 'good teams' and lost to the 'bad teams'.

In Round 7 they play Downend & Fishponds while Barbican Youth play Warwickshire Select 2. The ADs will be in the top pool unless they lose and Barbican win (by any score).

If The ADs go into the top pool, they will take with them 5/6 matchpoints and presumably have a very good chance of going up. If they lose however (and Barbican win), they will take a massive 0 points through to the demotion pool and may have to win all 4 remaining games (including against Guildford 3) in order to survive. So it seems that round 7 might decide whether The ADs are playing in Div 1 or Div 3S next year.

Interestingly this scenario came up in a discussion on Saturday night where we didn't know the outcome of the Sunday match but we noticed the AD's "erratic" (no offense intended) this season.

It will be very interesting how this pans out on the 4th March. Especially which team is out for both teams.

For "West is Best" in Pool A we are doing better than I (and I only can speak for myself here) expected.
This weekend I thought it would be a huge crisis as we were missing some key players. But they players who played this weekend stepped it up and got two team wins.

I have to say that the team spirit in our team is exceptional, moral is high even when we have a bad weekend, great bunch of players and always up for a good laugh.
As things stand we are going up to the Promotion pool with currently 1 point + whatever we achieve against Sussex. If Barbican wins we have at least 3 points to take forward.

To be totally selfish here I hope that Barbicans wins although good luck to both teams for the 4th March!!!!! :shock:
Nullius addictus iurare in verba magistri - I am not bound to believe in the word of any master
http://www.mikerichardt.co.uk

Mick Norris
Posts: 7012
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:29 pm

David Robertson wrote:As for Alan's point about a widening gap, I think there is room for a discussion about this. Our one experience of Div 1 has convinced us, were it needed, that the gap between 'good amateur' and 'pro' is vast - too vast to be closed competitively. Some weekends are a write-off. We're still receiving therapy for a [3 - 13] thrashing a year ago. SWD beat that this weekend, getting hammered [1 - 14]. Not fun
Would this be sorted by swapping 2 divisions of 16 teams to 3 divisions of 12 teams, and if so, would the teams want that?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Robertson
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by David Robertson » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:56 pm

Mick Norris wrote:Would this be sorted by swapping 2 divisions of 16 teams to 3 divisions of 12 teams, and if so, would the teams want that?
I think the critical questions might be: a) what problem is being resolved? And b) what is being improved?

Speaking only of the Div 1-Div 2 interface & team exchange, then as things stand, roughly 75% of teams promoted can't complete except against each other. Hence their competition starts with the formation of Pool D. That can lead to some good scraps to offset the earlier crushings from teams in Pool C. A 12-team APA in Div 1 could (would?) reduce some of the one-sided encounters.

BUT a 12-team APA could not seriously be a closed league; up & down would have to be locked in. The only question would be: how many? If four is judged 'too many' because too few risers are competitive, then would 2 up & down solve or improve anything? Part of the 4 up/down model was to speed up progression for new strong teams. That has been effective. Would 2 up/down make it less so? You'd want teams like Alba, or Gonzaga - or indeed, 3Cs, SoA, SWD, Warks, CU, SM - to find their right level as quickly as possible. As I mull it over, I ask myself whether 2 up v. 4 up really makes much difference to sporting competitiveness. Arguably, it doesn't

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:16 pm

It was 3 up, 3 down back when there were 12-team divisions.

Mick Norris
Posts: 7012
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:55 pm

3 out of 12 instead of 4 out of 16 seems fair enough
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Robertson
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by David Robertson » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:22 pm

Not-a-report after Round 8

...but a few matters were clarified with three rounds to go.

1) Alba's work is almost done. After squeezing past the ADs in Pool C, they need just another match point for promotion to Div 1. Indeed, technically, with 8 points already and healthy game points, they may already be promoted. Difficult to see them failing to gain a clean sweep now. Well done to them! The ADs remain well in the frame though. Do check McKay-Richardson on bd 4 to see the remarkable way in which Alba, 4-3 ahead, snatched the match with the 'save of the season'

2) CSC Dragons and Bradford A are relegated back to 3S and 3N respectively. Neither can gain more than 7 points after losses in Round 8, and even that is never(?) enough to survive. Tough luck, guys. Better luck next season

3) Pool B proved beyond doubt it was far stronger than Pool A. Of eight matches between the two Pools in Round 8, the team from Pool B won in seven of them. In fact, in the promotion Pool, the 'worst' of Pool B convincingly beat the 'best' of Pool A when Warwickshire Select 1 defeated West Is Best (on this occasion, second best)

4) Spirit of Atticus improved their chances of a quick return to Div 1 by pretty much ending those of Grantham Sharks 2. And Cambridge U did likewise after a heavy win against a somewhat weakened Sussex Martlets who now have much, arguably too much, to do to earn promotion.

5) In the relegation Pool, two relegation slots have effectively been filled (see above). Survival is pretty much guaranteed to absolutely no one though, since White Rose 2 finally roused themselves against Barbican Youth who seem determined to get me into trouble with Jonathan Rogers again :-P They'll be OK though; and so will Guildford 3 of course
Last edited by David Robertson on Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mick Norris
Posts: 7012
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:42 pm

Good to see Alba continuing to do well; it will be interesting to see how they fare in Div 1 next season

Hope to see SoA get promoted

Shame to welcome Bradford A back again, but at least it will boost numbers in Div 3 N next season
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

benedgell
Posts: 1246
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: Somerset
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by benedgell » Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:28 pm

David Robertson wrote:Not-a-report after Round 8

...but a few matters were clarified with three rounds to go.

1) Alba's work is almost done. After squeezing past the ADs in Pool C, they need just another match point for promotion to Div 1. Indeed, technically, with 8 points already and healthy game points, they may already be promoted. Difficult to see them failing to gain a clean sweep now. Well done to them! The ADs remain well in the frame though. Do check McKay-Richardson on bd 4 to see the remarkable way in which Alba, 4-3 ahead, snatched the match with the 'save of the season'

2) CSC Dragons and Bradford A are relegated back to 3S and 3N respectively. Neither can gain more than 7 points after losses in Round 8, and even that is never(?) enough to survive. Tough luck, guys. Better luck next season

3) Pool B proved beyond doubt it was far stronger than Pool A. Of eight matches between the two Pools in Round 8, the team from Pool B won in seven of them. In fact, in the promotion Pool, the 'worst' of Pool B convincingly beat the 'best' of Pool A when Warwickshire Select 1 defeated West Is Best (on this occasion, second best)

4) Spirit of Atticus improved their chances of a quick return to Div 1 by pretty much ending those of Grantham Sharks 2. And Cambridge U did likewise after a heavy win against a somewhat weakened Sussex Martlets who now have much, arguably too much, to do to earn promotion.

5) In the relegation Pool, two relegation slots have effectively been filled (see above). Survival is pretty much guaranteed to absolutely no one though, since White Rose 2 finally roused themselves against Barbican Youth who seem determined to get me into trouble with Jonathan Rogers again :-P They'll be OK though; and so will Guildford 3 of course
I would say Warwickshire 1's win against WiB wasn't quite as convincing as it looked on paper (bar a couple of game ending blunders in winning positions it could well have been a different story) but it certainly was striking the difference in strength between the teams in the promotion pool from the respective original pools.

Still, my team have secured our place in Div 2, and thats all that matters :)

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2401
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:23 pm

Mick Norris wrote:Shame to welcome Bradford A back again, but at least it will boost numbers in Div 3N next season
I dunno, the junior/female board has been a running sore for them all season, so probably for the best for them to come back down. A slightly sad comment on the state of (especially junior) chess in Yorkshire actually.

User avatar
Joey Stewart
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: All Of Them
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:11 pm

David Robertson wrote: 3) Pool B proved beyond doubt it was far stronger than Pool A. Of eight matches between the two Pools in Round 8, the team from Pool B won in seven of them. In fact, in the promotion Pool, the 'worst' of Pool B convincingly beat the 'best' of Pool A when Warwickshire Select 1 defeated West Is Best (on this occasion, second best)

You must have been waiting a long time to use that cheap pun, since west is best have never lost convincingly before....
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

David Robertson
Posts: 1972
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by David Robertson » Mon May 01, 2017 4:05 pm

Promoted

14 Alba (100%; well done!)
11 The ADs (clean sweep in w/end 5; well done)
9 Spirit of Atticus
8 Cambridge U

Narrowly unsuccessful: Warwicks Select

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2401
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon May 01, 2017 8:16 pm

Maybe Alba can break the instant relegation 'curse' you've noticed :) Must be a good chance to stabilise themselves in Div1.

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 4834
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue May 02, 2017 8:51 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:Maybe Alba can break the instant relegation 'curse' you've noticed :) Must be a good chance to stabilise themselves in Div1.
I suspect they will strengthen and target the Championship pool.

Jonathan Rogers
Posts: 3648
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:26 pm

Re: Division Two 2016-17

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Tue May 02, 2017 11:02 am

Yes, the top divisions look set to be stronger over the next couple of years. The second division was markedly stronger this year already, and the top end of the first division too. Wood Green and Barbican playing for sixth place in the last round? Nuff said.

Post Reply