Division Four (South) 2017-18

Venues, fixtures, teams and related matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:27 pm
The main issues with why this precise pairing system wouldn't work in the 4NCL are:
1. The fixation with pairing both rounds of a weekend together; or at the very least, the desire to guarantee a 1-1 colour split on each weekend; and
2. Triangular matches.
Triangular matches could be a problem, but once three teams are selected aren't they then just as outside the pairing system as if they took byes?

Twenty years ago, the system of having alternate colours wasn't always applied. It was then the practice of match captains to swap board orders, which is perhaps why an 80 point rule was needed to cope with this. If it meant an improved pairing scheme with fewer mismatches, I dare say players and captains could cope with having to change board orders or giving players the same colours.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:42 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:37 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:27 pm
The main issues with why this precise pairing system wouldn't work in the 4NCL are:
1. The fixation with pairing both rounds of a weekend together; or at the very least, the desire to guarantee a 1-1 colour split on each weekend; and
2. Triangular matches.
Triangular matches could be a problem, but once three teams are selected aren't they then just as outside the pairing system as if they took byes?

Twenty years ago, the system of having alternate colours wasn't always applied. It was then the practice of match captains to swap board orders, which is perhaps why an 80 point rule was needed to cope with this. If it meant an improved pairing scheme with fewer mismatches, I dare say players and captains could cope with having to change board orders or giving players the same colours.
I'm in favour of pairing round-by-round and ignoring 1-1 over a weekend, but when I say that I'm told that I'm wrong.

"As if they took byes" is the problem; it's non-trivial to tell the computer that three teams have played each other over the period of two rounds. You can do it if you have a dummy round added to the tournament so everyone else has a bye while you pair the third match of the triangular match. It's possible, but it's a pain; and even that doesn't solve the problem of colour sequencing. The method of selection for the triangular match at the moment is, at best, arbitrary.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:50 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:42 pm
The method of selection for the triangular match at the moment is, at best, arbitrary.
Suppose it's rounds 5 and 6. Having made the arbitrary selection of teams for the triangular match, just exclude them and run the computer pairings. That gives pairings for rounds 5 and 6. The problem arises at round 7 as to how to add the excluded teams back in again. This must arise anyway regardless of the pairing method, or are 4NCL team pairings one of the last bastions of manual pairing?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:50 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:42 pm
The method of selection for the triangular match at the moment is, at best, arbitrary.
Suppose it's rounds 5 and 6. Having made the arbitrary selection of teams for the triangular match, just exclude them and run the computer pairings. That gives pairings for rounds 5 and 6. The problem arises at round 7 as to how to add the excluded teams back in again. This must arise anyway regardless of the pairing method, or are 4NCL team pairings one of the last bastions of manual pairing?
They are indeed one of the last bastions of manual pairing.

NickFaulks
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:36 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 pm
They are indeed one of the last bastions of manual pairing.
Does this mean that under the new Tournament Regulations they can't be rated?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:51 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:36 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:00 pm
They are indeed one of the last bastions of manual pairing.
Does this mean that under the new Tournament Regulations they can't be rated?
Not that I spotted the other day? I spotted a lot of things that I argued against to help the 4NCL, e.g. the rule about needing 50% + 1 players from a team present before the team is allowed to start playing. I don't have the papers in front of me, what do you think I missed?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:09 pm

"I'm in favour of pairing round-by-round and ignoring 1-1 over a weekend, but when I say that I'm told that I'm wrong."

This time I think you're right.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:06 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:50 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:52 pm
I notice on the 4ncl page that Div 4 South has a whopping 40 teams listed for the coming season! Is it time for a Div 5?
http://www.4ncl.co.uk/1819_teams.htm Close of play: 37 teams.
Revised close of play: 38 teams. http://www.4ncl.co.uk/1819_teams.htm

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Division Four (South) 2017-18

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:14 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:06 pm
Revised close of play: 38 teams.
There are some additional second and third teams, showing the growth of some squads, but the only new squads seem to be "Pawn Storm" and "Rook and Roll". Without the player names, they may not even be new.

Check Innmates is Brown Jack, their local venue in Wiltshire having moved to the "Check Inn".

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