East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Results of competitions with tables, or as much detail as is possible.
User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3686
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:15 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:52 pm
However, what relatively little FIDE-rated chess was played due to the numbers pumped 27 Elo points into the system. My suspicion would be that other FIDE-rated events too around England would achieve similar results, but I've not looked into that at all. It's perhaps an investigation for someone else to perform.
27, 127 of which went to players whose year of birth began with a 2. It would probably be worth investigating that pattern as well.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17039
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:13 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:15 pm

27, 127 of which went to players whose year of birth began with a 2.
Which means -100 to players whose year of birth begins with a 1. Most of these will still be playing in 5 years time, whilst those whose year of birth begins with a 2 are less likely to.

Richard Bates
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:45 pm

Every time a new player enters the rating system 1000+ pts are 'pumped' into the system. This will only be inflationary to the existing population if these points are then transferred to them. Under the historic working of the FIDE rating system, and the way people entered it, this was actually arguably the case. People only got into the system if they had a tournament performance (or series of performances) above the 2200 (later 2000) cutoff. So often people of true strength below the cut off would manage to enter the system (due to natural variance) donate their new points, and exit the system again. And the relative high cutoff meant that many of the people entering the system were already at a level of chess maturity such that they wouldn't be routinely underrated on entering the system.

Claiming that a tournament with existing rated players adding points is 'inflationary', is it seems to me, clearly flawed. For a start it only happens if the people with high K-factors are underrated relative to those with lower ones. ie. (mainly) Juniors. And of course juniors are mainly those who are the relatively new players who need to be donating points to the pre-existing population for it to be inflationary. Since they are generally taking points the opposite is obviously the case. That said my sense is that the introduction of the K-40 factor has gone some way to combatting the deflation that seemed to be happening a few years ago. Basically because it has created enormous volatility, to the extent that these days there are far more over-rated juniors about. Which means they're not quite as scary to face, ratings wise. But of course there are new ones entering the system all the time.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8397
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:57 pm

If you have a closed population of players, which remains the same, then I still think a tournament like Warwickshire is inflationary. The mean rating of the players in Warwickshire increased relative to the mean rating of the population including everyone outside the system, who didn't play in it.

If you keep taking the population, and running tournaments closed to a few of them, then if the same phenomenon is observed, the mean rating of everyone in each tournament will go up. Eventually, if the players within the population inter-mingle enough, the mean rating of the population will go up. New players coming from outside the system will normally come in at the bottom and reduce it again; so yes, I agree that's a bit that fights against the otherwise inflationary way of working.

Reykjavik might be an interesting test of the underrated/overrated. There are a number of ENG players rated about 2000 in a genuinely international Open tournament. If English players really are underrated relative to the global population, then those players are candidates to gain rating points in Reykjavik; certainly more than their Iceland and international peers.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3686
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:16 am

With respect, Alex, I think you're arguing against a point other than the point that is being made.

(I admit that my own point is difficult to establish either way using the rating system, because it relies on the information for which the rating system is attempting to serve as a proxy.)

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8397
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:46 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:16 am
With respect, Alex, I think you're arguing against a point other than the point that is being made.

(I admit that my own point is difficult to establish either way using the rating system, because it relies on the information for which the rating system is attempting to serve as a proxy.)
Well, I was replying to this point in particular:
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:41 pm
I suspect part of Richard's point lies in the perception of rating deflation; when you've reached the level where you may get invited to lucrative norm tournaments based on your FIDE rating, the natural thing to do is to play in as many other FIDE-rated events as possible when you think there is inflation, and as few as possible when you think there is deflation.

Mike Gunn
Posts: 625
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Mike Gunn » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm

Tagging on to add a couple of points:

1. Paignton does now have online entry. I know this because I used the facility last year!

2. If you look at the %s in the various "metallic groups" of ECF membership they are (roughly):
Gold 25%
Silver 25%
Bronze 50%
It would seem that half the tournament playing ECF members are content to play in events which are not FIDE rated. Compared with 10 or more years ago there are more opportunities to play in FIDE rated events but the membership breakdown suggests there is not exactly a headlong rush to play in the FIDE rated events at the expense of those which are not.

3. At my (very average) level there can be very large discrepancies between FIDE rating and ECF grade. There is no great mystery about this as nearly 100% of English events are ECF graded and only a minority are FIDE rated. ECF grades are much more accurate for most English players because they are based on much more data. Thus it would be much fairer (for example) if eligibility for graded sections at the British were based on ECF grades rather than FIDE ratings. Perhaps it is not too late to make this simple change for this year's tournaments?

4. Long term there could be benefits (e.g. in attracting new players and maintaining their interest) if we made more use of the FIDE system, but (as pointed out above) it's really up to FIDE to change the required time limits to make this possible in the English chess scene.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4300
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:57 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm
4. Long term there could be benefits (e.g. in attracting new players and maintaining their interest) if we made more use of the FIDE system, but (as pointed out above) it's really up to FIDE to change the required time limits to make this possible in the English chess scene.
For players rated under 2200, representing the vast majority of new players, that has been done.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17039
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:16 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:57 pm
For players rated under 2200, representing the vast majority of new players, that has been done.
Well not really. If you are lucky enough to play or even beat Mark or Keith, or indeed anyone above 2200, your game would not be rated.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4300
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:16 pm
Well not really. If you are lucky enough to play or even beat Mark or Keith, or indeed anyone above 2200, your game would not be rated.
Newcomers to competitive chess do not rely upon games against GMs, or even >2200 players, to get their first rating.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8397
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm
1. Paignton does now have online entry. I know this because I used the facility last year!
Fair enough, I'm happy to stand corrected! There was a post on Facebook about it that was talking about it being old-fashioned, where one person to comment said "Where did I put my cheque book?" But I'm glad they've introduced it.
Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm
2. If you look at the %s in the various "metallic groups" of ECF membership they are (roughly):
Gold 25%
Silver 25%
Bronze 50%
It would seem that half the tournament playing ECF members are content to play in events which are not FIDE rated. Compared with 10 or more years ago there are more opportunities to play in FIDE rated events but the membership breakdown suggests there is not exactly a headlong rush to play in the FIDE rated events at the expense of those which are not.
I think you've got cause and effect wrong. I think that people choose their membership based on what their event requires, rather than choose their events based on what level of membership they have.

I also think if you broke it down by age group, and I'm thinking juniors in particular, you'd see a very different breakdown.
Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm
3. At my (very average) level there can be very large discrepancies between FIDE rating and ECF grade. There is no great mystery about this as nearly 100% of English events are ECF graded and only a minority are FIDE rated. ECF grades are much more accurate for most English players because they are based on much more data. Thus it would be much fairer (for example) if eligibility for graded sections at the British were based on ECF grades rather than FIDE ratings. Perhaps it is not too late to make this simple change for this year's tournaments?
I'm afraid it is. If it were an English Championship, you might have a point. But it's a British Championship, so there needs to be a common rating that people in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and beyond use.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17039
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:31 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Newcomers to competitive chess do not rely upon games against GMs, or even >2200 players, to get their first rating.
I would anticipate zero take up in the UK for the notion that you run a FIDE rated event with rules that exclude games against the top seeds from being rated. So from a practical point of view, UK open tournaments with session lengths of three and half hours or less won't be rated.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8397
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:37 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:31 pm
I would anticipate zero take up in the UK for the notion that you run a FIDE rated event with rules that exclude games against the top seeds from being rated. So from a practical point of view, UK open tournaments with session lengths of three and half hours or less won't be rated.
Agreed; or alternatively, a slightly weird situation where the Major (i.e. the second section) was FIDE-rated and the Open section wasn't.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4300
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:36 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:31 pm
I would anticipate zero take up in the UK
So would I, and nobody outside the UK really cares. The rule was inserted for the benefit of nations looking for ways to get more games rated, not for those looking for reasons not to do so.
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:37 pm
Agreed; or alternatively, a slightly weird situation where the Major (i.e. the second section) was FIDE-rated and the Open section wasn't.
I'm not sure that would be weird. It does seem to be the higher rated players who are nervous of putting their valuable FIDE ratings at risk in knockabout games at quickish time controls, while others are not so worried and just want their ratings to be updated.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 3042
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: East Devon Open, 23-25 February

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:30 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:16 pm
Mike Gunn wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:12 pm
3. At my (very average) level there can be very large discrepancies between FIDE rating and ECF grade. There is no great mystery about this as nearly 100% of English events are ECF graded and only a minority are FIDE rated. ECF grades are much more accurate for most English players because they are based on much more data. Thus it would be much fairer (for example) if eligibility for graded sections at the British were based on ECF grades rather than FIDE ratings. Perhaps it is not too late to make this simple change for this year's tournaments?
I'm afraid it is. If it were an English Championship, you might have a point. But it's a British Championship, so there needs to be a common rating that people in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and beyond use.
When these Championships were introduced in the 1990s, they were the British U175 Championship, the British U150 Championship, the British U125 Championship and the British U100 Championship.

They continued along similar lines for about 15 years - until you came along.

How did we manage to do the impossible for a decade and a half?
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply