Fischer Placement Chess

The act of developing or disclosing that which is unknown.
J T Melsom
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:16 pm

This is a near pointless thread. For the vast majority of players there is a richness and variety in chess that needs no gimmicks to change it. No opening is exhausted or proved to be drawn. How many positions that GMs agree drawn are played out and proved to be drawn by amateurs? Chess has so much more potential without fiddling with starting positions.

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Mats Winther
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Mats Winther » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:26 pm

Well, then, if amateurs can't study theory without becoming dumb robots, and if they can't avoid theory without choosing tedious variations (Queen Pawn opening, French Exchange, et al.), then it's possible to solve this dilemma with my proposal:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/chess/ ... riants.htm
/Mats

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Mats Winther
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Mats Winther » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:36 pm

J T Melsom, it is a question of creativity. Whether an opening, such as the French Exchange, is theoretically drawn or not, matters less to the amateur. What matters is what is created on the board. What if amateur painters only chose suburban concrete houses as motif, or musicians only played renaissance flute music, or fotball players only played defensively, etc. It is necessary that creativity is kept alive. The Bishop's opening is not the way to creativity.
/Mats

J T Melsom
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:58 pm

The Bishops Opening identified only by the first couple of moves is as likely to lead to creativity as any other. You must escape the false premise that chess is exhausted.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:21 pm

Capablanca, no less, said that chess was suffering a "draw death" back in the 1920s. People never learn, do they?? :roll:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Mats Winther
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Mats Winther » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:01 am

I never said that chess is exhausted, although GM:s reportedly think that one cannot tackle the Russian defence anymore. The question is why one should, instead, devote one's time and energy to playing the Bishop's opening and the French Exchange. I think one should always strive after creativity. Life is too valuable to be wasted on meaningless wood chopping. One should take pains to play interesting chess. I think it destroys the fun when, on the ICC, I only seldom can play interesting and challenging positions. Instead I'll have to go through the monotony of a Queen's Pawn opening as Black. And I cannot play the French, because then I'll be bored to death. Then I try the Alekhine. But then the White players reply 2.Nc3. Try and be creative instead! Any of my proposals of relocation would remedy this.
/Mats

Ola Winfridsson
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Ola Winfridsson » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:49 am

Mats Winther wrote:The question is why one should, instead, devote one's time and energy to playing the Bishop's opening and the French Exchange. I think one should always strive after creativity. Life is too valuable to be wasted on meaningless wood chopping. One should take pains to play interesting chess. I think it destroys the fun when, on the ICC, I only seldom can play interesting and challenging positions. Instead I'll have to go through the monotony of a Queen's Pawn opening as Black. And I cannot play the French, because then I'll be bored to death. Then I try the Alekhine. But then the White players reply 2.Nc3. Try and be creative instead! Any of my proposals of relocation would remedy this.
/Mats
I think you fail to understand the psychology of not going along with your main variations, and for that matter, what you consider dull chess is quite possibly rich in possibilities and subtetlies for someone else.

James Colman and Peter Rhodes make two very valuable points. What's the point of knowing 25 moves of the Sämisch variation of the King's Indian or the Arkhangelsk in the Ruy Lopez, however interesting and rich in possibilities those final positions are, if you don't understand the basic principles of opening play? None whatsoever.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:09 pm

Oi! I play 2Nc3 against the Alekhine, and have had several very interesting games with it :)

The same applies even more to one of my very favourite openings - often castigated for being "boring" and avoiding sharp play - the 2c3 Sicilian (of course 8) ) I have dozens of examples in my own games of anything but dull, stodgy play (particularly a few crushes of strong players with it :D )

You can even make stuff like the Ruy Lopez Exchange or Four Knights Game seem exciting - if you want to :wink:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Paul McKeown
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:26 pm

I think this thread is much more boring than the French Exchange variation...

Peter Rhodes
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Peter Rhodes » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:11 am

Around a week ago I read a game annotation by a youngish GM and I've been trying to find it because what the GM wrote would have been quite useful material for this discussion.

I've been unable to find it, but what the guy was saying was basically along these lines ....
"In my preparation for this opponent .... I noticed he played xyz opening ... and my trainer suggested to me I look at such-and-such an idea which he had prepared some time ago. I took his advice and prepared a reply which lead to me being able to gain an definite advantage."

Although I agree with most in this thread that I like chess as it is - in a sense I have some sympathy for Mats stance.

If you start with the assumption (and it is a big one !) that Chess is about solving problems over the board, and setting problems for your opponent, then the idea that these problems are completely new territory for one player whilst on the other hand the other player is deep within his own comfort-zone after spending countless hours in front of chessbase - it kind of makes the match uneven. Notwithstanding the fact that both opponents have access to megabase anyway.

Is having a trainer suggest a certain line for your upcoming opponent any different than human or computer assistance in an adjourment (and I am guilty of preparation assistance).

Anyways, that is my point ! ... that Mats has a point. Wouldn't it be nice to know that the position you faced was as novel to your opponent as it is to you ? If you and your opponent do not come to a certain position as equals, using nothing more than your chess ability to solve the problems at hand - then is it an equally matched game - answers on a postcard !

i guess the biggest reason why FischerRandom will never take off is because writing opening books is too much of a money-spinner :D and can you imagine how many new ECO codes would be needed.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:58 am

Peter Rhodes wrote: Wouldn't it be nice to know that the position you faced was as novel to your opponent as it is to you ?
I'm unconvinced that Chess 960 actually delivers this. If you took it really seriously then you would make sure that you had played training games in every single one of the possible positions. I believe there are some starting positions where quick knock outs are potentially available to those who know they are there. By contrast if you can play middle games sensibly, then there are relatively few early snares in conventional chess to be worried about provided that you keep your tactical eye out.

Ola Winfridsson
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Ola Winfridsson » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:14 pm

Apart from the fact that FischeRandom makes some 200 years of chess history more or less totally irrelevant, I just consider it a completely different game from chess.

Peter Rhodes
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Peter Rhodes » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:46 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I believe there are some starting positions where quick knock outs are potentially available to those who know they are there.
Yes, that's a good point I hadn't considered.

Can I then suggest Rhodes10000 where the opponents sit across each other and are presented with a random chess problem from a database of 10,000 such problems. Each player gets a buzzer and the first to buzz wins. Make it best of three if you want.

Seriously though, I guess an the element of chess knowledge is unavoidable.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:28 pm

I have played in the Dutch Open Chess960 tournament a few times and one of the players said he played in the Mainz event, where he overheard one GM say to another something like, "I've found a new move in 278". The 960 starting positions are numbered to identify them. So opening theory is coming to "Fischer random". (It may not be in starting position 278, so please don't spend hours checking your preparation.)

I found the Dutch event very good, and Chess960 is fun. It helps of course that I know several of the players, it's held in a bar, and Amsterdam is a good place to visit.
"Kevin was the arbiter and was very patient. " Nick Grey

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Mats Winther
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Re: Fischer Placement Chess

Post by Mats Winther » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:41 pm

When I play on the ICC, the players are obsessed with avoiding theory. So they play the French Exchange, etc. The other day a strong opponent played 2.Nc3 against my Aljechin defence. The game went: 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. exd5 Nxd5 4. Qf3 e6 5. Nxd5 Qxd5 6. d3 Qxf3 7. Nxf3... That's why it's not very good training to play on the ICC. The games seldom have any theoretical value, but are quite dull. However, when I play Chess960 on the ICC, it's a quite different thing. Games are engaging and interesting. But many Chess960 positions are strategically inferior. Comparatively, in my variants, all positions are close to the standard position, and this vouches for strategical diversity.

Players of Fide-chess are quite used to the variegated nature of chess. Chess is very unique in this way. In the same opening there are lines that are slow and positional, whereas other lines are extremely tactical. Comparatively, Xiangqi (Chinese Chess) always revolves around tactics. Strategy and slow positional play does not exist. So players won't experience my proposal as a wholly different game. To simply swap a piece or two on the first rank will have no impact on general chess strategy.

I am somewhat surprised at the lack of support for my idea. Aren't chess trainers interested in a variant where the young players cannot monotonously play their opening lines over and over again? Isn't it good training to think from the very beginning?
/Mats

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