4NCL International Congress

Information regarding live broadcasts using the ECF sensory boards.
Neil Graham
Posts: 1137
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Neil Graham » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:54 am

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:09 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:22 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:37 am


Wonder if his school gets informed? Can’t imagine they’d be too impressed...
I wonder that this matter is being treated so lightly. This was surely a concerted attempt to gain £600 by fraudulent means maintained consistently across 8 rounds of a tournament. A six year old would know that this was wrong and unacceptable. Have the police been informed? This was a clear and intentional crime.
Having previously been in the police for 11 years I'd agree it would be possible to have it recorded as an attempted fraud. It's would obviously come across as a unique case to police, but I think a well timed visit to a police station with some handy pre written MG11 statements and clear, neat bundle of evidence, a police officer would happily record the crime and interview the kid with an appropriate adult present. I'd imagine given the seriousness of the 'attempt' he might be 50/50 for a date at Youth Court, depending on local juvenile policies and diversions.
The guidelines issued by the CPS on Juvenile offending are clear that this would not be prosecuted through a court. There are plenty of instances of sportsmen and women cheating, knowingly breaking rules or causing injury. The normal procedure is for the governing body to issue a banning order or in some cases give out a heavy fine. Unless someone can advise differently the ECF has no procedure in place to deal with this.

Matt Bridgeman
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:21 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:52 am

There's quite a lot of movement on gaming type cases, where prosecutors are not leaving it to the national federations. In card gaming there was the recent Phil Ivey case, (although a civil case, there were criminal references made). And a few years earlier (2011), poker player Darren Woods was sentenced to 15 months imprisonment by Sheffield Crown Court for cheating at online poker, as well as receiving a huge compensation bill. Rules for juveniles aside, certainly in the Woods case the CPS didn't leave it to the UK Poker Federation, as it's known, to do their own thing.

John Upham
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Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by John Upham » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:18 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:52 am
Any isolated case of cheating doesnt change that.

What exactly is an "isolated case" ?

How many isolated cases do we need for the cases not to be isolated ?

And then of course we have the hackneyed phrase "Lessons will be learnt so that this will not happen again"

Brian Towers
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:46 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:49 pm
usually people leaving the board...are just leaving the board.
Indeed.
And you may leave the board at any time, even when it is your move. Article 11.2.3.2 says you may not leave the playing area (usually just the room where the games are taking place) without the arbiter's permission when you "have the move". The implication being that you are free to wander round the playing area when it is your turn. You may not leave the playing venue (includes the toilets, smoking area, possibly other playing areas) without the arbiter's permission during the game (11.2.3.1).

This is as important as all the mobile phone stuff but isn't taken anything like as seriously by arbiters. Along with the mobile phone announcements before round 1 arbiters should also define the playing area and playing venue and remind players of articles 11.2.3.1 and 11.2.3.2 Players shouldn't be going to the toilet on their move or going to their room without the arbiter's permission.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Nick Burrows
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:28 pm

John Upham wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:18 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:52 am
Any isolated case of cheating doesnt change that.
What exactly is an "isolated case" ?

How many isolated cases do we need for the cases not to be isolated ?
It's an isolated case when it is in no way representative of the norm.

If there are 50'000 instances of players leaving the board without cheating, and then 1 does. It should be treated in isolation, rather than trying to crack down (and lowering the enjoyment) of all the other players not cheating.

Nick Grey
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:19 pm

I think it appropriate to ask a former teacher at my school.
If I had been caught cheating at chess or bridge at school would I have been expelled?

J T Melsom
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by J T Melsom » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:44 pm

Nick Grey, please give it a rest now. You don't know much if anything about the circumstances that prompted this cheating incident. There are far too many people being excluded from schools. Let the process take its course.

Nick Grey
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:56 pm

I have posed a question to a former teacher at my school. I'm not sure why you think I am uninformed.
I play in 4NCL & perhaps some observation of the lobbies are appropriate. Anyway done on detection.
I have put my input onto the cheating thread.
There may be some players that may want some compensation bearing in mind their entry fee & other costs.
Will wait for a process but as far as ECF is concerned they should publish the rationale, decision, appeal for all disputes including those which go to fide. Cheating is one of those - also seems to be a top priority for conduct.

Brian Towers
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Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Brian Towers » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:43 am

Nick Grey wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:19 pm
I think it appropriate to ask a former teacher at my school.
If I had been caught cheating at chess or bridge at school would I have been expelled?
I taught maths at your school when you were there and I was the master in charge of chess.
No, you would not have been expelled for cheating at chess.
I was friendly with Francis Grundy who ran the school bridge club. No, you wouldn't have been expelled for cheating at bridge. At schoolboy level it is rather hard not to cheat at bridge.

Two boys whom I taught did far worse things.

"Frank" got caught in possession of cannabis in his O level year. He was allowed to sit his O levels but not allowed to continue into the 6th form.

"T" had a porn racket going with one of the prefects. He would buy hard core stuff at the newsagents (he was over 6' tall) tear it up into pages, sell them to the other kids. He got done principally I suspect because the head boy wasn't in on it. Not expelled. I can't remember what his punishment was. Since the particular item of pornography he got caught with involved a horse I made sure in my end of term charades he was given things like "Racing Grandstand", "The ITV 7", "Black Beauty", etc.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Matthew Turner
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:27 am

Keith Arkell wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:00 am
Congrats to my good friends Simon williams and Matt Turner on securing the 2 qualifying places to the British KO Champs in London, shortly - worth a minimum of £2,500
A player has now told me that we haven’t in fact qualified for the knockout but a pre-lim round with less prize money. Might be true, might not be - I wonder when i’ll Find out?

Kevin Thurlow
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:52 am

"A player has now told me that we haven’t in fact qualified for the knockout but a pre-lim round with less prize money. Might be true, might not be - I wonder when i’ll Find out?"

What's the wording on the entry form?

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon

Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:30 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:52 am
What's the wording on the entry form?
The Regulations stated that the two highest placed eligible players would qualify to play in the British Knockout Championship. This is the case.

I don't want to comment further on here, but I have emailed the two players involved.

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