134th Varsity match

Information regarding live broadcasts using the ECF sensory boards.
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John Saunders
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by John Saunders » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:09 pm

Live play on ChessDom: http://www.chessdom.com/varsity-chess-m ... rige-live/

Eventually, all games, photos and report will feature here: http://www.saund.co.uk/britbase/pgn/201 ... iewer.html

I'm updating as each game finishes.
Personal Twitter @johnchess / Personal Website http://www.saund.co.uk / Britbase http://www.britbase.co.uk

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:04 pm

A rather one sided match ended in a 6-2 win for Cambridge.

John McKenna
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by John McKenna » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:50 pm

I was left with the (false) impression that Oxford were doing worse than they actually were due to a common problem -
board two drawn (although the players put their kings on squares which indicated 0-1 - don't believe them - it was ½-½).
Whoever came up with the cockeyed, cack-handed idea of using two kings placed in various ways to indicate the results should be ashamed. What was wrong with the tradition of placing just the winner's king on his king's 4th square or both kings on their king's 4th square to show a draw and persuading the machines' h/w & s/w that's what we chessical humans do when left to our own devices?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:16 pm

John McKenna wrote:I was left with the (false) impression that Oxford were doing worse than they actually were due to a common problem -
board two drawn (although the players put their kings on squares which indicated 0-1 - don't believe them - it was ½-½).
Whoever came up with the cockeyed, cack-handed idea of using two kings placed in various ways to indicate the results should be ashamed. What was wrong with the tradition of placing just the winner's king on his king's 4th square or both kings on their king's 4th square to show a draw and persuading the machines' h/w & s/w that's what we chessical humans do when left to our own devices?
It may be to do with operation of live boards but I agree that players understand a white or black king in the middle of the board whereas those with less experience won't always know the difference between kings on e4/d5 and d4/e5.

Alan Walton
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by Alan Walton » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:44 pm

The reason why two kings is used is because it is an impossible position and overrules the program; if it was just one king and somebody plays Ke4 the system wouldn't be able to tell if it was a result or a just a move

Ian Thompson
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:01 pm

Alan Walton wrote:The reason why two kings is used is because it is an impossible position and overrules the program; if it was just one king and somebody plays Ke4 the system wouldn't be able to tell if it was a result or a just a move
... which obviously doesn't work when Ke4 was the last move of the game. When a black king appears on d5 you can't tell the difference between Ke4 as the last move of the game and Ke4 as the start of indicating the result.

A better solution would have been placing blocks or tokens on the board to indicate the result, as suggested by someone else on this forum recently. Better still would be having an area on the edge the board on which you place one, or both, kings to indicate the result.

David Clayton
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by David Clayton » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:21 pm

Regarding the incorrect notification of some result at the Varsity Match. The placing the Kings in the middle of the board of a live game to indicate a result is not ideal, especially if performed by players.

Whilst it sounds simple, in practice it is flawed, as players can easily put the Kings on the wrong squares, especially at the end of a very tense game. This also occurs if players glide the kings over the squares and the computer records a temporary presence as an end of game result.

The most common flaw however, which has its own terminology coined by John Saunders, is Last Move Syndrome (LMS). This is where the King is on c3 is placed on d4 to indicate either a black win or a draw, this can be recorded as a move, and if uncorrected, the incorrect pgn will end up on databases.

Players will sometimes continue to analyse their game at the board, blissfully unaware that viewers are seeing their analysis and thinking these moves have taken place.

The most appropriate solution to indicating the result of the match on the live display if for this task to be left to the officials, either the live games operator or the arbiter. Personally, I don't think it is a task of the player to indicate the result.

I consider the most appropriate procedure to follow in the interest of the players and the viewers, is at the end of the game, no pieces should be move, the top copy of the score sheet is left at the table for the live games operator or the arbiter to complete the result and make sure the last move recorded on the computer matches up with the score sheet.

Of course, the above procedure is a change to the traditional method of 'Set up your pieces for the next game', so it may take some time for players and arbiters to adapt to this this new procedure.

John McKenna
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by John McKenna » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:56 pm

While I thank David C and all who have posted so far I wonder why the accepted procedure couldn't just have been implemented as - at the end of the game reset the pieces (to let the machinery know the game is over) then place a king or kings in the traditional manner to indicate the result. Why complicate by reinventing the wheel and making it square?
Last edited by John McKenna on Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:07 pm

John McKenna wrote:While I thank David C and all who have posted so far I wonder why the accepted procedure couldn't just have been implemented as - at the end of the game reset the pieces (to let the machinery know the game is over) then place a king or kings in the traditional manner to indicate the result. Why complicate by reinventing the wheel and make it square?
I'm fairly sure that moving the pieces will totally throw the computer and is the one thing that players are told not to do. That is why the kings need to be placed before the pieces are moved.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:08 pm

Alan Walton wrote:The reason why two kings is used is because it is an impossible position and overrules the program; if it was just one king and somebody plays Ke4 the system wouldn't be able to tell if it was a result or a just a move
Thanks, a fairly obvious reason even though I didn't provide it :oops:

John McKenna
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by John McKenna » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:15 pm

I'm fairly sure that moving the pieces will totally throw the computer and is the one thing that players are told not to do. That is why the kings need to be placed before the pieces are moved.
That's due to the way the procedure has been programmed and we're stuck with it for now. Hopefully it will be improved some time in the future.

Apologies for taking us off the topic of the Varsity match itself.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Brian Towers
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Re: 134th Varsity match

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:57 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:those with less experience won't always know the difference between kings on e4/d5 and d4/e5.
I think the rule is badly worded.
It should be something like:
"Place the kings in the middle of the board at the end of the game.
One on a black square, one on white for a draw.
Both on white squares for a white win.
Both on black squares for a black win".
I bet there would be much less confusion.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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