4NCL International Congress

Information regarding live broadcasts using the ECF sensory boards.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:59 am

David Robertson wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:52 pm
His rd 8 win was a corker. Not bad for a 1200. Wouldn't have been out of place for a 2400 :roll: CCF, hhmm
Those playing were oblivious to what appears to be a cheat detection, despite the theatre of the 4NCL's metal detector being employed.

It's one step forward and one step backward. The immediate toilets were banned to parents, but given the live coverage, it would have been easy to sit in the hotel's public areas with a laptop, tablet or phone following the games and getting assessments without needing any special software.

Keith Arkell
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Keith Arkell » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:00 am

Congrats to my good friends Simon williams and Matt Turner on securing the 2 qualifying places to the British KO Champs in London, shortly - worth a minimum of £2500.

There were 5 of us equal on 6/9: Simon, Matt, My
self, Daniel Fernamdez and Ravia Haria. The relevant tie-break was sum of opps scores ( 'Bcholtz -1') . It didn't help me that 2 of my opps withdrew after rd 7. In the end i was 3rd because Matt's opponents scored half a point more than my opponents scored. Grrrr! lol , but seriously I'm happy with the outcome.

I've continued my 5 month renaissance, beginning at 2406(!!) in July, followed by gains of 10, 4, 17, 7 and 9 to move to 2452 so far....

Richard Bates
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:37 am

David Robertson wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:52 pm
Richard Bates wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:33 pm
Somebody who won't be playing for a long time, if ever, one would hope
His rd 8 win was a corker. Not bad for a 1200. Wouldn't have been out of place for a 2400 :roll: CCF, hhmm
Wonder if his school gets informed? Can’t imagine they’d be too impressed...

DFernandez
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by DFernandez » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:25 am

Obviously, whatever tiebreak is used, 3/5 of the people involved will probably end up feeling aggrieved. In my case, this was mitigated ever so slightly by two facts: having qualified in 2016, also on tiebreak; and having been dead lost in no fewer than 5 rounds (2,3,6,7,9) from which I ended up scoring 50% against a 2470 average! Which, incidentally, will be my next (Dec) rating.

It would be less easy to be philosophical, I think, if I were Richard Pert- he took risks and outplayed a grandmaster "on demand" and had the place completely in his grasp before being swindled in bizarre fashion.

That all being said, WELL DONE to both the qualifiers- both of whom showed good nerves and stable play. Williams was the only person to beat the giant-slaying Indian IM Ravi Teja; while Turner, who should have scored more than 1/2 against myself and Ravi Haria, replied with his own strong rearguard action in the penultimate round, which he actually won.

As with most of the players who played by genuine means, I welcome the body-scans that were randomly done throughout the tournament. Of course, as a first iteration in a British congress, there were probably loopholes (I remember noticing once or twice that people could hang their jumpers on their chairs before getting scanned, and then it would be possible to put the jumper- possibly containing a phone- on later.)

Also, even though Alex and his metal detector rightly focused on the Open (where several thousand pounds were at stake for some), one artefact of the system we have here- where the Majors, Intermediates and Minors all have significant prizes of their own-is that (as we have seen) cheating can be an issue in those sections as well. For my 2p worth, a blanket transmission delay of 15 minutes and a random metal-detector check on spectators seem like two things to bear in mind for the next iteration, and they should prevent a high percentage of casual but computer-based cheating attempts. It surprises me that a transmission delay isn't common practice yet, actually.

Anyway- enough of that! Good to have seen everyone again and to have had "a seat at the table". Back to the day job for me...

Richard Bates
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Richard Bates » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:57 am

Keith Arkell wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:00 am
Congrats to my good friends Simon williams and Matt Turner on securing the 2 qualifying places to the British KO Champs in London, shortly - worth a minimum of £2500.

There were 5 of us equal on 6/9: Simon, Matt, My
self, Daniel Fernamdez and Ravia Haria. The relevant tie-break was sum of opps scores ( 'Bcholtz -1') . It didn't help me that 2 of my opps withdrew after rd 7. In the end i was 3rd because Matt's opponents scored half a point more than my opponents scored. Grrrr! lol , but seriously I'm happy with the outcome.

I've continued my 5 month renaissance, beginning at 2406(!!) in July, followed by gains of 10, 4, 17, 7 and 9 to move to 2452 so far....
However well established/common, it seems to me that Sum of Opponents scores is a pretty horrible tiebreak at the best of times, even assuming that there are no withdrawals which just makes it nonsensical as a means of splitting players. I don't see that how a player has performed subsequent to when you have played them, says anything about your own performance. At least sum of opponents ratings (modified to allow for low ranked outliers) or the good old sum of progressives have some greater logic IMO. (the latter at least says something about how a player was performing at the time that you played them. And has the effect of rewarding front runners). I imagine that the latter might have been ruled out because it was not a "FIDE approved" system, although it was deemed appropriate in the qualifying events of previous years (when it has less justification).

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Michael Farthing
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:22 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:37 am
David Robertson wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:52 pm
Richard Bates wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:33 pm
Somebody who won't be playing for a long time, if ever, one would hope
His rd 8 win was a corker. Not bad for a 1200. Wouldn't have been out of place for a 2400 :roll: CCF, hhmm
Wonder if his school gets informed? Can’t imagine they’d be too impressed...
I wonder that this matter is being treated so lightly. This was surely a concerted attempt to gain £600 by fraudulent means maintained consistently across 8 rounds of a tournament. A six year old would know that this was wrong and unacceptable. Have the police been informed? This was a clear and intentional crime.

Andy Howie
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Andy Howie » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:09 am

Michael,

You would be hard pushed getting the police to act on this. I've personally been involved with fraud investigations at my previous employ where sums in orders of magnitude more than here were stolen and we could not get the police to act.

My personal view is the same as yours, it is fraud, it is attempted theft and should be dealt with as such. The authorities appear to have a different view

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:16 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:57 am
I imagine that the latter might have been ruled out because it was not a "FIDE approved" system, although it was deemed appropriate in the qualifying events of previous years (when it has less justification).
Sum of Progressive scores works reasonably well when there's a traditional hand crafted wall chart. With the tournament being run on chess-results, perhaps arbiters feel limited to what that supports, although that perhaps is chicken and egg.

Sum of opponents scores has a drawback when players don't complete the event.

Neil Graham
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 pm

Andy Howie wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:09 am
Michael,

You would be hard pushed getting the police to act on this. I've personally been involved with fraud investigations at my previous employ where sums in orders of magnitude more than here were stolen and we could not get the police to act.

My personal view is the same as yours, it is fraud, it is attempted theft and should be dealt with as such. The authorities appear to have a different view
I have no idea what occurred but given the amount, the age of the competitor and the fact that it was an attempt only, the CPS would not have prosecuted - this sort of thing would be cleared by means of a caution at the most. One assumes that there will be some sort of banning and that previous results this grading year will be expunged?

J T Melsom
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by J T Melsom » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:05 am

The organisers have clearly taken steps to protect the integrity of their event, and are no doubt reflecting on further action and statements. Are there any established guide-lines in such cases? Most commenting on this thread don't have first hand knowledge, and at the very least we need to ensure that the process is not contaminated and that there is transparency and justice rather than public lynching. It is a disturbing development, but I'd encourage people to hold fire on comment.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:21 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:05 am
Most commenting on this thread don't have first hand knowledge,
I was there, as were some other regular posters. I wasn't paying much attention to the "third" section, so hadn't noticed until the event had finished that there was a player on 100% after 8 rounds, only to be excluded from the pairings for the ninth.

Given that all three sections had not only the regular chess-results reporting, but also chess24 live coverage, the disappearance of the section leader after 8 of 9 rounds is somewhat difficult to cover up.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:52 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:05 am
Are there any established guide-lines in such cases?
Not in England, to the best of my knowledge. I was peripherally involved in two previous cases.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:21 am
Given that all three sections had not only the regular chess-results reporting, but also chess24 live coverage, the disappearance of the section leader after 8 of 9 rounds is somewhat difficult to cover up.
Not necessarily that difficult, had the organisers and arbiters been so minded. My first thought when I saw that the leader was not playing in the last round was that he had simply left early, having already won the event.

The organisers and arbiters have acted properly in expunging the player's results and omitting him from the prize list. It's understandable that they don't wish to make any immediate comment.

Richard Bates
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:30 am

There’s a statement on the 4ncl website.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:37 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:52 am
The organisers and arbiters have acted properly in expunging the player's results and omitting him from the prize list. It's understandable that they don't wish to make any immediate comment.
Richard Bates wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:30 am
There’s a statement on the 4ncl website.
Commentator's curse

NickFaulks
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Re: 4NCL International Congress

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am

Copied from Cheating thread.
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:52 pm
At our level in Div 3/4 of the 4ncl i think its exceptionally rare. Yet, as you said - your paranoia is affecting your play.
Nick,

I had referred to a 4NCL game in which my opponent had, after every move, headed straight out of the playing hall into a busy area full of people on laptops, returning to bang out the best response in a highly complicated position. Having already been victimised by one player who was subsequently unmasked as a cheater, i could not help wondering whether the same thing might be happening again.

Do you still maintain that this is merely evidence of my own mental illness?

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