Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Provide a description and system requirements and/or condition etc.
NickFaulks
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: In perhaps 100 games at that move rate and the similar 40/80 + 20 or 40 with 60 second increments, I can only recall one of my games where the time didn't add or added early.
Perhaps the 30 second increment has changed everything, but in earlier times it used to be standard procedure, even at the top level, at the end of a time scramble to play another move or two "for safety".
It would be much better if the move count was displayed on the face of the display
As a traditionalist I disagree ( I think it is the player's responsibility to know how many moves he has played ), but I accept that it is the way of the world.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:20 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:Ideally suited for chess clubs,schools and home use
A serious point about chess clubs though. Many clubs participate in two leagues or more which will have time controls both different and not pre-programmed. The DGT 2010 can cope with this, since you set the time controls at the start of the season and it will remember the settings. My particular local setting is that consecutive weeks will see matches with 75 minutes and an extra 15 minutes and 80 minutes with 10 second increments.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:33 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Many clubs participate in two leagues or more which will have time controls both different and not pre-programmed. The DGT 2010 can cope with this
It can cope only because they are different modes. It would require setting each time if one league was 80 min +10 sec and the other was 75 min + 15 sec.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:43 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote: It would require setting each time if one league was 80 min +10 sec and the other was 75 min + 15 sec.
I suspect the "hackers special" mode could be used. That's where you have a Fischer mode with everything variable. Without having the courage to actually use it in practice, I was able to create a setting that would add additional time of 15 minutes at move 35 with a zero second increment. I'd have to look up my crib sheet to reveal how it's done.

Even with the modes pre-programmed I think it takes longer to set half a dozen clocks than it does on a traditional clockwork timer where you just reset it to 4:30 or 4:45.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:39 am

I agree that you can use other modes on the DGT with settings of 0 & 0 for time and increment but if the original main time is the same then you risk using the wrong one. I think you may be able to do the same with the other clock (wish it had a shorter name :D - DCT is too close to DGT).

I'm not sure I agree that a programmed mode will take longer to set than an analogue. It depends how accurately you attempt to set the analogue. I hate to think how often I had a flag perched on the top of the minute hand only for it to fall when I put the clock down requiring it to be reset. I was also taught that the minute hand should never be turned back only forward (I'm not saying I obeyed that!). This ensured that the minute and hour hand stayed in alignment (remember having the minute hand approaching the hour but the hour hand indicating half past?).

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:49 am

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Alex Holowczak » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:57 am

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Thank you Alex, so for schools, most leagues and home use would you recommend it ?


I realise I'm not the Alex you referred to, but I also saw it in action at the junior tournament you were at, and thought I'd offer a comment or two.

I think Alex's comment that "In theory it is therefore possible for one clock to be showing the time remaining in session 1 whilst the other clock is showing the time remaining in session 3" is a showstopper for use at important events. Personally, I'd be reluctant to use the clock at events with more than one time control.

I'd be very happy to use the clocks at a Rapidplay or a Blitz - i.e. a game with one time period. The DGT Easy+ is suitable for games with one time period and an increment, but £24.95 for this trumps the fact the DGT Easy+ retails for about £30. So they're definitely a better option.

The only other comment I'd make is on aesthetics - It would have been nice if they weren't grey.
Apart from major FIDE events and the odd league there aren't many UK events that use 3 or more sessions and I'm sure they already have adequate equipment but obviously the handling of multiple periods will be looked into, to further improve our product.
With incremental time controls being promoted for tournaments and the lack of clocks currently available for these events (you yourself had concerns over which clocks were going to used at the event) they should make a big difference.

From your experience of them, would you say they are robust enough for these events?
I thought I'd replied to this.

I think I'd happily use them in cases where I currently use the DGT Easy/Easy+, e.g. Rapidplays, School/Informal use. I probably wouldn't use them at club level because we have intermediate time controls, and given the way the time addition is handled - different from either of the two ways it can happen for the DGTs - I'd need to get used to it. Having spent a few years getting local clubs used to the way DGTs do it, I'm not sure I want to get them used to a different way of doing it.

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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:53 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:You should reach the required number of moves at an intermediate time control, then check that there's time remaining and add additional time.
This is an old discussion. (...)
It's a discussion I remember coming up in Abu Dhabi or Baku. I forget which. Someone with no obvious connection to England commented something like "One advantage of not changing is that it annoys Roger de Coverly."

E Michael White
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by E Michael White » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:48 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:It's alleged that DGT didn't put the counter on the display because they thought it contravened the Laws of Chess. It doesn't and hasn't done so since the days when the first sensory boards appeared over thirty years ago
Oh yes it has and still does ! There was a FIDE finding that confirmed the Arbiter must not indicate to the players how many moves have been made. This was considered to include the arbiter approving equipment for use in a tournament which indicated the number of moves.

As with many interpretations the underlying part of the law on which it was based has changed since but the original interpretation stays until explicitly altered by the latest ruleset or removed by a vote at the GA. The relevant underlying law which refers to checking at time controls was included until 2001. For example the 1993 version of law 11.3 states:-
11.3
If both players cannot keep score, the arbiter, or his deputy, must endeavour to be present and keep score. The arbiter must not intervene unless one flag falls, and until then he should not indicate in any manner to the players how many moves have been made.
A downside of using increments is that it has pressured the rules committees to remove parts of the laws where players can restart their opponents clock. For example it used to be in the Laws that a player could restart an opponents clock if they knocked over or displaced pieces and pressed the clock without replacing the pieces. This is used as a method of cheating by some players when their opponents are short of time. ENG arbiters are always loathe to add penalty times when this happens.

It may well be the right time to allow moves shown on clocks ( ed. used for claims) and at the same time require arbiters to add penalty times when players adjust pieces in their opponents time.
Last edited by E Michael White on Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:57 am

E Michael White wrote:There was a FIDE finding that confirmed the Arbiter must not indicate to the players how many moves have been made. This was considered to include the arbiter approving equipment for use in a tournament which indicated the number of moves.
I was referring to 6.13
6.13

Screens, monitors, or demonstration boards showing the current position on the chessboard, the moves and the number of moves made/completed, and clocks which also show the number of moves, are allowed in the playing hall. However, the player may not make a claim relying only on information shown in this manner.

E Michael White
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by E Michael White » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:14 am

yep current laws allow move counters but claims cannot be made or disputed solely based on the counter. It's probably necessary to supply all clocks in an event to the same standard.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:27 am

E Michael White wrote:but claims cannot be made or disputed solely based on the counter.
It's only a possible issue at events without increments or with increments less than 30 seconds as otherwise players should have a completed scoresheet.

The DGT treatment of flag fall can be confusing when they simultaneously display both a flag fall and additional time. Players can be uncertain what, if anything, the flag display indicates. So they might follow the clock and make a false claim of a win on time or neglect to claim a valid one.

E Michael White
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by E Michael White » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:03 pm

yes and also 50 move claims if players notice the score sheet doesn't tie up with the move counter at the end with or without increments. I doubt if the majority of League games will go increment due to the restricted playing window.

Gareth T Ellis
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:11 pm

Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:20 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:
Ideally suited for chess clubs,schools and home use


A serious point about chess clubs though. Many clubs participate in two leagues or more which will have time controls both different and not pre-programmed. The DGT 2010 can cope with this, since you set the time controls at the start of the season and it will remember the settings. My particular local setting is that consecutive weeks will see matches with 75 minutes and an extra 15 minutes and 80 minutes with 10 second increments.
Roger this clock can cope with that, amending any pre-programmed option will automatically store the new setting in option "99" until either the battery is removed or a new amendment is made.
It's quick to do, took me about an hour while half watching tv to open 120 new clocks put the battery in and set for 40 minutes with 10 second increments and repack the boxes.

Option "00" is a user defined setting with up to 4 time periods each with an option of move setting and increments, this takes longer to set but as a one off gives full freedom to fit any requirement.

To view the move number during play, press either the "-" or "+" key and hold for 3 seconds, release and the display will return to the game time.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:27 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:

Roger this clock can cope with that, amending any pre-programmed option will automatically store the new setting in option "99" until either the battery is removed or a new amendment is made.
That wasn't my point, which was that if you require two customised settings, you cannot store both of them as "99". On the DGT2010, I have 75 + 15 stored at option 5 (I think) and 80 10 at option 18. If the previous home match was in the "other" league, the first job on switching on the clocks is to advance it or reverse it to the other setting.

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Re: Digital Chess Timer £24.95 plus p&p

Post by Gareth T Ellis » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:57 pm

Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:27 pm

Gareth T Ellis wrote:


Roger this clock can cope with that, amending any pre-programmed option will automatically store the new setting in option "99" until either the battery is removed or a new amendment is made.


That wasn't my point, which was that if you require two customised settings, you cannot store both of them as "99". On the DGT2010, I have 75 + 15 stored at option 5 (I think) and 80 10 at option 18. If the previous home match was in the "other" league, the first job on switching on the clocks is to advance it or reverse it to the other setting.
"99"" and "00" that allows 2 separate customised settings to be stored as previously posted.

Or due to the price it would even be possible to have more clocks available for matches.

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