Cheating in chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Simon Rogers
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:49 am

The presenter didn't mention which tournament.
But 5 disqualified from the top 6 is quite scary.
I think though some of the discussion about the ethics of cheating was interesting.
Why do people cheat?
Might be worth possibly a new Topic in the near future.

User avatar
Joey Stewart
Posts: 1202
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: All Of Them
Contact:

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Joey Stewart » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 am

To be fair, reciting theory books online is identical to running a chess computer for the first 20+ moves of the game, there's a reason we aren't allowed in the bookstalls while in play at tournaments!
It probably depends largely on the theory used and how 'human' the moves look as to whether an opponent reports you.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19018
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:56 am

John Upham wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:46 am
Is there a criteria that says "Your rating is too low to know that much opening theory : you are banned"
I don't think that is known. There were bans by lichess in the online 4NCL after very few games, less games than one might expect from the mathematics of coincidence. Other measures such as the time taken over moves are also claimed to be in use.

Without proof, I believe the claim that they exclude moves from analysis that are part of theory is a con. Rather they just use an arbitrary move count cut off.

Simon Rogers
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pm

At the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7840
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:11 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 am
To be fair, reciting theory books online is identical to running a chess computer for the first 20+ moves of the game,
This is an entirely ignorant comment given that reference to books is allowed in online correspondence chess
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

User avatar
Joey Stewart
Posts: 1202
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 pm
Location: All Of Them
Contact:

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Joey Stewart » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:16 pm

Only in iccf I believe - most web browser sites that do correspondence still try their best to discourage cheating
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 7840
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:30 pm

No, in the actual chess.com format which is being referred to.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Simon Rogers
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:43 pm

Once I find the Blackpool game, I will post it on the forum for you all, but for obvious reasons I won't mention my opponent's name or the date it was played. I think it was over 20 years ago now.
Since then I have heard stories, how a few players deliberately throw games in their club tournaments to keep their Chess grade low and then pick up the prize money in Chess Congresses.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3824
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:07 pm

"Only in iccf I believe - most web browser sites that do correspondence still try their best to discourage cheating"

ICCF bans people for cheating (well, apart from some of their arbiters...). Using computers in ICCF events is permitted, basically as they recognise you can't stop it. You can even claim wins or draws on the appropriate 7-piece tablebase.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover
Contact:

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:19 pm

Hi John,

"I played a couple of games that were within my Caro-Kann and QGD (Tarrasch) opening
preparation that were both agreed drawn in database positions that I was familiar with."

The match up systems that I know off only started looking for 'ffyness' after mainline theory.

However, a good OTB player who specialised in an opening is bound too, in their own free time, not currently
playing in a tournament, has looked deeper with a computer at the coming middle game patterns.

The chances are their next 5-10 moves after known theory will match up because they may well
be computer moves given to the player months before the game under review was played.

They will play these moves almost instantly and risk being wrongfully banned for knowing something
they took the trouble to learn and study in advance.

I suspect the hunter seeker cheater catchers may take this into consideration when banning a top dog as well
as having to keep up with the latest theoretical wrinkles because even average players will be and the
chances are the latest wrinkle will be computer based because the top players, the theory creators, use them.

(I do not think they will admit this. It seems every time Professor Regan pops up to scare off the
robotic players yet another method of detection is revealed and those 'at it' are taking notes. :wink: )

Simon Rogers
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:40 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am
5 players banned in the same tournament? I'm guessing he must have been referring to an online tournament probably on chess.com (lichess seems to allow cheats to continually win their tournaments) .

But the parallel with the degeneration of sport is starting to show though in chess, the more times people see cheats rewarded for their dirty ways the more it encourages others that the only way for them to compete is to do the same thing until it becomes a vicious cycle .
You're absolutely right Joey.
Regards cheating in chess, and the online stuff, I'm afraid the rewards outweigh the risks and punishments.
Punishments are not harsh enough.
You see it in other sports like athletics where after testing positive for a steroid, you are only banned for a couple of years.

Chris Rice
Posts: 3071
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:43 pm

Simon Rogers wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pm
At the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
Isn't this match fixing?

NickFaulks
Posts: 5900
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:56 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:19 pm
The match up systems that I know off only started looking for 'ffyness' after mainline theory.
Do you actually know that is true?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Simon Rogers
Posts: 650
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:30 pm

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:07 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:43 pm
Simon Rogers wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:08 pm
At the Scarborough Congress you have to walk past the book stall to go to the loo.
Cheating comes in various forms.
I remember a game I played many years ago in the Blackpool Chess Congress at the Winter Gardens in the final round.
My opponent battered me and I resigned with only a king and knight left. My opponent then asked me to write the result down as a win for myself. Apparently he wanted to keep his grade below a certain number.
I then had to explain in broken English to my Latvian friend how I had won this game.
I remember at the start of the conversation my Latvian friend questioned why the arbiter had wrote down a win on the results board.
I then told him I had won and my Latvian friend said "that is not possible ".
I was new to Chess Tournaments at the time and wasn't aware of the giggery pokery that can take place.
Isn't this match fixing?
Not sure. As it happened after the match rather than before.
He aaked me to write the result on the slip as a win for me.
It was one of my first tournaments and I was a bit naive.
A few years later I was warned by an experienced player by the sharks in the lower sections at tournaments, particularly at Blackpool and Scarborough as it was £500 for first prize.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Cheating in chess

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am

Simon Rogers wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:49 am
The presenter didn't mention which tournament.
But 5 disqualified from the top 6 is quite scary.
Not really very scary at all :) It mostly shows that the cheats weren't worried about being subtle/intelligent about it. Which we should broadly be happy about, I would think.

Any entirely 'crude' computer cheater will obviously tend to up in the top few in any tournament they enter!

Post Reply