Jumping titles

[Matt Mackenzie]

There are claims that Kasparov appears in the supplementary grading list that included Banja Luka and his first USSR Championship, as an IM on the basis that the letter 'm' appears next to his name. Does this sound plausible?

Actually, checking old issues of Chess Informant suggests we got this slightly wrong.

Issue 27 has the mid-1979 supplementary list, which has Kasparov untitled and with an Elo rating of 2545.

Issue 28 has the regular January 1980 list and there he is given the IM title and a rating of 2595. It seems that Banja Luka - though played in April 1979 - did not get rated until the "full" list (he may have received the title for that performance as well?)

[Rich Wiltshir]

Comments are not what I anticipated when miss-reading the subject line as "jumping titties"
.
I'll get m' coat

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Of course (to get back on topic) no-one has fulfilled the criteria for the GM title and then decided not to apply for the title, have they? Can anyone think of someone who clearly would be GM strength, but gave up on the game at about the point they would have been clearly on course to be a GM? Or maybe someone who focused on another game (such as Go or Shogi)? We could call these the "missing" Western chess GM cohort (or something). Any candidates?

[Joey Stewart]

I think if anyone was that mad they were willing to put years of effort into achieving a title and then not claim it the chances are they wouldn't be good enough to accomplish the task in the first place.

[Ian Thompson]

I think if anyone was that mad they were willing to put years of effort into achieving a title and then not claim it the chances are they wouldn't be good enough to accomplish the task in the first place.

How much effort would it take for someone who was extremely good at a related game? Yoshiharu Habu, for example. I don't know how much effort he put in to chess, but I'd guess not much, and he had a rating of about 2400.

[MJMcCready]

There probably are others. He didn't quite make it there but Dennis Hassibis was on course to being titled then dropped out. He was there abouts, I remember watching him more than once back in the day but I didn't really know who he was, just another 2300 player or something.

I seem to remember in the early 90s there was discussion that if a player's rating dropped below a certain level they would lose their title and have to go through the process of getting it again. I remember Nigel Short wrote something about it in the BCM around 92. Whatever happened there? You've got the title for life now, haven't you? They don't take titles away do they? I've seen two, now very old GMs with ratings of 2200-2300 but they still have their title.

[LawrenceCooper]

There probably are others. He didn't quite make it there but Dennis Hassibis was on course to being titled then dropped out. He was there abouts, I remember watching him more than once back in the day but I didn't really know who he was, just another 2300 player or something.

I seem to remember in the early 90s there was discussion that if a player's rating dropped below a certain level they would lose their title and have to go through the process of getting it again. I remember Nigel Short wrote something about it in the BCM around 92. Whatever happened there? You've got the title for life now, haven't you? They don't take titles away do they? I've seen two, now very old GMs with ratings of 2200-2300 but they still have their title.

Mihai Suba has dropped below 2000: https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1203363 but it would seem very harsh to punish a player for continuing to play, in their old age, by stripping them of their title.

[Roger de Coverly]

I remember Nigel Short wrote something about it in the BCM around 92. Whatever happened there? You've got the title for life now, haven't you? They don't take titles away do they?

The rule before and after Nigel's articles was that titles are retained for life. Titles have been removed for cheating though, both during the game with computer engines and for obtaining titles with fraudulent results.

[MJMcCready]

You might have a point there, I seem to remember Myanmar got into serious hot water with FIDE around 10 years ago for match and tournament fixing and a number of players were stripped of their title. I played an IM from there once and I remember him telling me about it at great length.

[NickFaulks]

it would seem very harsh to punish a player for continuing to play, in their old age, by stripping them of their title.

The idea is of course completely daft. The inaugural list of GMs in 1950 contained many players who were recognised for their lifetime achievements, though a long way past their best.

It might make sense to require some rating floor for the titled opponents needed to validate norms, but that idea has never gained any traction - rightly or not, this is not viewed as a significant issue.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Add to bucket list: "Play GM rated lower than me." (and still lose, of course!)

[Ian Thompson]

It might make sense to require some rating floor for the titled opponents needed to validate norms, but that idea has never gained any traction - rightly or not, this is not viewed as a significant issue.

When norms are achieved by performing at a certain rating level against opponents of a minimum average rating why should it matter at all what title those players have, or don't have?

How can it possibly to fair to say to someone "If you had beaten a GM rated 2300 you would have got a GM norm, but as you actually beat an IM rated 2500 you don't get one"?

[Graham Borrowdale]

How can it possibly to fair to say to someone "If you had beaten a GM rated 2300 you would have got a GM norm, but as you actually beat an IM rated 2500 you don't get one"?

I guess the latter scenario could be abused, as a player can get an unsustainably high rating at a point in time after a run of good results, but I agree with your general point. No doubt there is a good reason for the rule.

[Matt Mackenzie]

There probably are others. He didn't quite make it there but Dennis Hassibis was on course to being titled then dropped out. He was there abouts, I remember watching him more than once back in the day but I didn't really know who he was, just another 2300 player or something.

I seem to remember in the early 90s there was discussion that if a player's rating dropped below a certain level they would lose their title and have to go through the process of getting it again. I remember Nigel Short wrote something about it in the BCM around 92. Whatever happened there? You've got the title for life now, haven't you? They don't take titles away do they? I've seen two, now very old GMs with ratings of 2200-2300 but they still have their title.

Mihai Suba has dropped below 2000: https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1203363 but it would seem very harsh to punish a player for continuing to play, in their old age, by stripping them of their title.

That is strikingly low, does he have some sort of health problem - whether mental or physical?

He is "only" 76 which is not that old in veteran GM terms. And of course a very talented and original player at his peak.

As for the more general point, stripping people of titles in that way is a nonsense only put about by the myopic and vengeful.

Anyone who has properly earned a chess title should keep it for life, no questions asked.

[LawrenceCooper]

It might make sense to require some rating floor for the titled opponents needed to validate norms, but that idea has never gained any traction - rightly or not, this is not viewed as a significant issue.

When norms are achieved by performing at a certain rating level against opponents of a minimum average rating why should it matter at all what title those players have, or don't have?

How can it possibly to fair to say to someone "If you had beaten a GM rated 2300 you would have got a GM norm, but as you actually beat an IM rated 2500 you don't get one"?

Whilst not the same question, I'm trying to remember the rationale for FIDE stopping 2 GMs being acceptable in place of 3 IMs in IM norm all-play-all tournaments. Nick F will undoubtedly know the answer.