Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.

Who do you think will win the final of Chess Masters: the Endgame?

Poll ended at Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:40 pm

Lula
2
11%
Kel
2
11%
Thalia
12
63%
Richie
3
16%
 
Total votes: 19

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Apr 23, 2025 9:40 pm

Chess Masters: the Endgame reaches its climax with the Final on Monday 28 April 2025 at 8pm on BBC2.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002bm36
The four finalists return for the last time to the Great Hall, ready to be put through their chess-playing paces like never before. A series of mind-melting chess challenges awaits, with each one knocking a player out. Just one player is left standing to be crowned chess champion and lift the much-coveted winner's trophy.
Who do you think will win?

I have left voting in the poll open for five days, so until this time on Monday evening (I think I can edit the post to shut the poll down just before the programme is broadcast, or at least to record the state of the votes at that time).

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Jon Mahony » Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:21 pm

Much converted trophy - by who exactly? :roll:
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

Neil_Hickman
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Neil_Hickman » Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:46 pm

Jon Mahony wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:21 pm
Much coveted trophy - by who exactly? :roll:
Someone who is a fan of Pointless?

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Jon Mahony
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Jon Mahony » Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:43 pm

Neil_Hickman wrote:
Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:46 pm
Jon Mahony wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:21 pm
Much coveted trophy - by who exactly? :roll:
Someone who is a fan of Pointless?
Could be :lol:
"When you see a good move, look for a better one!" - Lasker

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:27 pm

Last call for votes! I will try and remember to post here what the state of voting was before the programme is broadcast tonight. Currently at 18 votes, with Thalia having 11 of those. Unlike real-life elections, having the state of voting visible can affect polls like this. Sadly, this forum does not have the reach to ascertain the popularity of the contestants across the entire viewership of the programme. But then no-one cares who wins Countdown or Mastermind, do they? Which begs the question, why the Bake Off-style presentation?

Mick Norris
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:22 pm

Thalia 12, Richie 3, Kel & Lula 2, will be interesting to see how it goes tonight
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by LawrenceCooper » Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:27 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:22 pm
Thalia 12, Richie 3, Kel & Lula 2, will be interesting to see how it goes tonight
As per the poll.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:48 am

Just putting the point here that Richie was clearly winning in the Final Eliminator, so Thalia should not really have been such a favourite to win, IMO. The stronger player was Thalia, but it would not have been a huge shock for Richie (or Kel) to win. It was clear from the puzzles that Thalia and Kel are good at those, and that Lula and Richie were not (or found Puzzle 2 particularly hard for some reason).

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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:27 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:48 am
Just putting the point here that Richie was clearly winning in the Final Eliminator, so Thalia should not really have been such a favourite to win, IMO. The stronger player was Thalia, but it would not have been a huge shock for Richie (or Kel) to win. It was clear from the puzzles that Thalia and Kel are good at those, and that Lula and Richie were not (or found Puzzle 2 particularly hard for some reason).
When the poll was made though we didn't know the format, the time control or the two finalists. My feeling would be that the shorter the game is the more it would favour Thalia, the slower it is then Richie's chances increase.

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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:27 pm

The poll was good, so thanks to Chris for that; remarkably accurate, given that the voters got the winner right, the runner up right, but agreed it wasn't impossible that any of the 4 could win

Obviously, I would have liked to see a Bolton winner, or Richie as closest to my age, but well done Thalia for a hard fought win
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Apr 29, 2025 6:16 pm

Am going to put here what I have worked out for Episode 8 ('The Final') for the "5 checkmate puzzles". I am putting this in this thread, and will then link from the main thread as it might get lost over there. I have given timestamps for the most visible parts of the missing puzzles (i.e. not the scenes where they are seen at a distance, with no chance of seeing the position).

Puzzle 1



White to move. Checkmate in 1 move.

All the contestants in the final got this puzzle correct.

Puzzle 2



White to move. Checkmate in 2 moves.

Kel and Thalia got this puzzle correct. Lula and Richie both failed, but in the same amount of time.

Puzzle 3



White to move. Checkmate in 3 moves.

Puzzle not shown fully in programme. It is seen at timestamps 05:26 and 6:20. We know Thalia gets this one correct, as the puzzle Thalia is shown failing on is Puzzle 5. Kel gets this one wrong, despite the incorrect comment from Sue Perkins later (that Kel solved three puzzles).

Puzzle 4



White to move. Checkmate in 4 moves.

Puzzle not shown fully in programme. It is partially seen at right at timestamp 6:20, and also seen at right at timestamp 07:04. It is partially seen again in the background at timestamp 07:10 after Thalia has solved it, with a White rook on c8, presumably making the fourth move to deliver mate. It is best seen at timestamp 7:21. We know that Thalia solves this and that David Howell chose one of two moves at move 2 for Black, as the third possible move would lead to a different final position at move 4.

Puzzle 5

???

Puzzle not shown fully in programme. Presumably it is "White to play. Checkmate in 5 moves."

At timestamp 7:10 we see the position after one move each by White and Black (i.e. mate in 4):



White to move. Checkmate in 4 moves.

Thalia at this point goes wrong and makes an incorrect move (seen at timestamp 07:11). The question is, is it possible to retrofit two half-moves onto this position to create a "mate in 5" position that corresponds with what we see on the screen? There is a clue in that when Thalia makes the incorrect second move at timestamp 07:11, there are no captured pieces by the side of the board, so presumably it is just a simple pawn push that forces the position we see above. So by this piece of deduction, the initial position is one of these two positions:



White to move. Checkmate in 5 moves.



White to move. Checkmate in 5 moves.

Both are mate in 5, but both appear to be 'cooked' as you can either start with the pawn move or with what is the second move of the mating sequence after the more obvious pawn push. Not managed to find a unique position yet that will lead to the mate in 4 position above. Anyway, you get the idea.

This one is genuinely a nice puzzle. As others have said, puzzles 1 and 2 are ultimately trivial, puzzle 3 is also not that difficult, puzzle 4 is quite direct. This one is far more subtle. Give it a go! (Try not to post the solution for a while yet.)

Tie-break puzzle



White to move. Checkmate in 2 moves.

This position was used to resolve the tie between Lula and Richie (who both failed on Puzzle 2). Lula took "30 seconds" to get this tie-break puzzle. Richie took "half that time".
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Apr 29, 2025 6:23 pm

The solution to puzzle 2 is very nice.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:05 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Tue Apr 29, 2025 6:23 pm
The solution to puzzle 2 is very nice.
What I find interesting about puzzle 2 is that clearly if you have seen that sort of thing before, you will eventually get this one, but Richie and Lula clearly either had not, or the pressure of the competition meant their minds went blank. It did lead to some expressed emotion on their parts when getting it wrong (I believe this is known as "TV gold"?). I wonder if any of us would do any better under that sort of pressure? It would be nice to know how long Thalia and Kel took to get this one.

There is the logical process of elimination available. If you realise that a non-checking first move will fail (because Black has multiple ways to give a check next move - this logic helps with solving some types of chess problems, so those familiar with solving chess problems and studies - by which I mean the composed non-checking problems/endgame studies genres - will have an advantage here), then you only have to examine the five checks that are available. Four of these fail, as Black is able to reply with a capture, leaving clearly not enough mating material (understanding this may be the tricky bit). The fifth check is also met by a capture by Black, and understanding that the resulting position allows a mate in one does require the ability to visualise the board three half-moves ahead, and to account in your head for all the Black king's flight squares.

Either Richie and Lula are not capable of this visualisation (which seems unlikely), or the part of their brain dealing with this breaks down under stress, which seems the more likely explanation. I would guess that 98% of the watching audience would either never get this one, or need a few minutes to work it out.

That both Richie and Lula got the tie-breaker correct, but took 15 and 30 seconds respectively, maybe also says something else about the thought processes going on and the degree of visualisation. I am guessing that a large proportion of experienced league players would get this one instantly, but might not see this combination from a few moves earlier if trying to calculate a few moves ahead (e.g. the White pawn may not yet have reached d6). This is the most game-like position - can anyone search databases and see if this is from an actual game?

Turning to Puzzle 3, Kel played 1.Nxb5+ and was told "Puzzle Incomplete". Like Puzzle 2, this one requires you stop and think a bit, as the Black queen-rook battery on the h-file means forcing checks are needed for all three moves, so you 'just' need to examine the 6 discovered checks by the knight. But thinking fast like this under pressure is something that is not that easy unless you have a store of chess patterns and themes to help. This one can be done logically as well, but most chess players above a certain level will after looking at the different checks for a while, just 'see' the solution. If you cannot 'see' it, then the eliminaton-of-moves logic goes that the second check will have to be with the knight as well (after you eliminate the bishop sacrifice on b7 as unsound - again, this might be the tricky part of the thought process). Of all the knight moves, only one allows two possible checks on move two - all the others only leave a return to c7 with check and a perpetual. The solution becomes obvious at that point, and you realise that the bishop on g2 was a red herring.

Would those looking at these puzzles agree that they did a good job (like the memorisation tests) of winnowing out the stronger players? Would have loved to see how well the other 8 contestants would have done on these puzzles. Would Puzzle 4 have been relatively easy for most people reading this thread? Is Puzzle 5 really difficult? I will say that I would likely have found move 2 on Puzzle 5, but then failed to complete it by falling for the sneaky stalemate trap. Apologies if that is a spoiler for anyone still trying to solve it! :D

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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:21 am

I looked briefly at puzzle 4 on my phone and couldn't see it instantly

I set it up at a board at the club last night, one of our other players wandered over not having watched any of the program, and it took us about quarter of an hour or so to solve it; whether it is better or worse with 2 players discussing it with each other, I don't know

Not looked at puzzle 5 yet
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Mick Norris
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Re: Chess Masters: the Endgame: THE FINAL

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:19 am

Solved puzzle 5 now, although it's effectively a mate on four given we have the position after the first move, I found this easier than puzzle 4

Whether I'd be able to solve any of these under pressure is an entirely different matter
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