Funding a Grand Prix

[Alex McFarlane]

I want an automated entry system for the British, but I want one I know is reliable and will reduce the workload.

It should accept multiple entries but only for events which are not taking place at the same time. It should offer the appropriate discounts eg if you are playing in the afternoon 5 day then you get a reduced fee for the morning 5 day in the same week. For junior entries who are also playing in the Major Open/Championship it should flag up where there will be overlapping rounds. Ideally it should also indicated for English players if their membership will be valid at the beginning of the tournament. It should check that ECF code and FIDE code are compatible and if only one is entered it should enter the other.
It should take entries from Scotland and Wales (in particular) and convert their national grade if required into ECF even if they have an ECF code.

It should total the entry fee + membership if required - discounts.

I don't think this is a simple ticky box exercise.

I repeat I want such a system but I want to be resonably sure it does all it is supposed to before going down that route.

I agree we have a bit of a Catch 22 in that organisers would be wary of a system that isn't used by the ECF itself and I would be wary of a system that hadn't been proven on 'simpler' cases. It may be that as a first step the ECF would need to offer the system for other events it runs.

[Alex Holowczak]

The default method of entering chess Congresses is unchanged in over forty years and probably longer. Namely you fill in an entry form and send off a cheque with the entry form in the post. As a consequence you expect to turn up just before the first round and for play to start on time.

In fairness, the Internet has only become a viable way of gathering entries for a congress for about 5-10 years.

Cheques are on the brink of extinction. BUCA doesn't do cheques. I'm not even sure we have a cheque book. The simple reason: students don't have cheque books. All money gets transferred electronically. I don't think they even come as standard on current accounts now; you have to ask for them. So if we're trying to make chess appealing to people my age, it makes it much easier for them to be able to enter online (via Paypal, for example), rather than by cheque (which a parent may have to write for them). Sean's events have shown that it's the way forward.

Despite receiving most of his entries online, players turn up to his events just before the first round, and play always starts on time.

[Roger de Coverly]

The organiser is making a saving in that he doesn't have to lug around a folder with 500 entry forms, he can just label them and keep them in his inbox. It's simply a convenience issue for the organiser.

So why doesn't the ECF do it if it's simple?

I like the notion that the ECF could take entry fees and chess club memberships on behalf of tournaments and clubs.

If the money went anywhere near the ECF's books, you are potentially adding to turnover and thus VAT. That would particularly apply if a club player's payment included £ 12 for the ECF.

When you have an ECF that appears to struggle with membership renewals and with invoicing for Game Fee, would anyone really want their club or Congress finances in any way involved?

[Roger de Coverly]

Sean's events have shown that it's the way forward.

Despite receiving most of his entries online, players turn up to his events just before the first round, and play always starts on time.

No disagreement there. It demonstrates the approach which could be used. I think there's a transaction cost that has to be swallowed which you don't get with cheques.

[Alex Holowczak]

The organiser is making a saving in that he doesn't have to lug around a folder with 500 entry forms, he can just label them and keep them in his inbox. It's simply a convenience issue for the organiser.

So why doesn't the ECF do it if it's simple?

Dunno. I've been banging on about it for 3 British Championships now...

I guess it's one of these that's easy to do if you have people with the time to do it. That's probably the sticking point.

Sean's events have shown that it's the way forward.

Despite receiving most of his entries online, players turn up to his events just before the first round, and play always starts on time.

No disagreement there. It demonstrates the approach which could be used. I think there's a transaction cost that has to be swallowed which you don't get with cheques.

20p + 3.4%, ranging down to 20p + 1.4% depending on the value of the entry. You put your entry fees up to cover the cost. It's no problem.

[Roger de Coverly]

It may be that as a first step the ECF would need to offer the system for other events it runs.

I cannot think of any other individual events directly run by the ECF. The British rapidplay is separately run with cheques payable to "British Rapidplay", the English Seniors is run this year by e2e4.

The ECF could develop a standard template, if someone donated the time, expertise and support. It could them supply it to Congresses to use under their own name.

A simple standard template would just cover the normal Congress where there are three or four events, but you can only enter one of them. The overlapping complexity of the British Championships is always likely to need something that is useful only the British itself. I could suggest doing it the other way round. Where the British is straightforward, like the weekenders or rapidplays, install the on-line system for them only. Even there you may have discounts, membership renewals or Welsh and Scottish ratings to contend with.

[Alex Holowczak]

I want an automated entry system for the British, but I want one I know is reliable and will reduce the workload.

It should accept multiple entries but only for events which are not taking place at the same time. It should offer the appropriate discounts eg if you are playing in the afternoon 5 day then you get a reduced fee for the morning 5 day in the same week. For junior entries who are also playing in the Major Open/Championship it should flag up where there will be overlapping rounds. Ideally it should also indicated for English players if their membership will be valid at the beginning of the tournament. It should check that ECF code and FIDE code are compatible and if only one is entered it should enter the other.
It should take entries from Scotland and Wales (in particular) and convert their national grade if required into ECF even if they have an ECF code.

It should total the entry fee + membership if required - discounts.

I don't think this is a simple ticky box exercise.

e2e4's system is effectively an online entry form and nothing else. If Sean received an online entry, then he'd treat it in the same way as a postal entry. It's just that the information is sent to him via e-mail rather than via post. Which is more convenient for organiser and entrant alike.

The system you propose effectively encourages the computer to do the work traditionally done by the organiser. In fact, the organiser could even enter the postal entry into this online system you've just explained, as a check that everything's correct. So it sounds like you want the computer to do the more mundane organisational tasks when it comes to taking entries, rather than simply acting as a mechanism to take entries. It's a good idea, and it'd be worthwhile having. You're right that it'd be a lot more complicated.

[Roger de Coverly]

The system you propose effectively encourages the computer to do the work traditionally done by the organiser.

How much of the backroom stuff in the British is automated? You get printed tournament charts on the walls at the start of events, and printed pairings by Swiss Master or Tournament Director. You may even get printed pairing cards.

You might have to do the British the other way round. Start by developing a "British Championship management system" used only for processing postal and on the day entries. When you get it to work, you add a front end web interface so players input their own details.

[Alex Holowczak]

How much of the backroom stuff in the British is automated? You get printed tournament charts on the walls at the start of events, and printed pairings by Swiss Master or Tournament Director. You may even get printed pairing cards.

I can confirm the pairing cards are printed.

[Sean Hewitt]

e2e4's system is effectively an online entry form and nothing else. If Sean received an online entry, then he'd treat it in the same way as a postal entry. It's just that the information is sent to him via e-mail rather than via post. Which is more convenient for organiser and entrant alike.

For the moment that's true, although an online entry is much easier to cut and paste into a database than a postal entry is .

The database what I wrote does all the clever stuff such as grading check, rating check and membership check.

I have however commissioned an automated system which will

Allow multiple entries
Automatically update the database and the webiste
Automatically calculate the entry fee due

Those familiar with e2e4 events might find the online entry form for the Birmingham rapidplay strangely familiar .

[Richard Cowan]

I want an automated entry system for the British, but I want one I know is reliable and will reduce the workload.

It should accept multiple entries but only for events which are not taking place at the same time. It should offer the appropriate discounts eg if you are playing in the afternoon 5 day then you get a reduced fee for the morning 5 day in the same week. For junior entries who are also playing in the Major Open/Championship it should flag up where there will be overlapping rounds. Ideally it should also indicated for English players if their membership will be valid at the beginning of the tournament. It should check that ECF code and FIDE code are compatible and if only one is entered it should enter the other.
It should take entries from Scotland and Wales (in particular) and convert their national grade if required into ECF even if they have an ECF code.

It should total the entry fee + membership if required - discounts.

I don't think this is a simple ticky box exercise.

This is all pretty easy to do, tbh, best with either Javascript / Jquery. It's basically simple form validation; there will even be ready-made solutions, e.g. a simple Joomla site with some forms. This could all be done in about a day by a good coder...
All apart from the check to see if their membership is valid - that would depend on where this infomation is, and how it's stored and accessible. I would think that for a few £100s this could be set up, which would not need much regular maintenance. I would have thought that to avoid VAT / tax issues, the ECF could designate this as a service to be included within it's membership fee for the organisation in question (congresses / etc. are members too, right?). As has been previously mentioned, this could then be paid directly into the account of the organiser in question. Ebay doesn't pay VAT on your transactions, so why would this apply to a service offered by the ECF?
As has already been stated, a number of advantages follow from this approach (and some more, that haven't been mentioned!) -
you can list entries on the webiste, you can import these directly into tournament management software,
you can show advertising for a sponsor on the page,
you can sell advertising space on the page,
it would act as a check to accellerate the take-up of membership if you couldn't enter online because your membership had run out (encouraging you to join/re-join),
it is more convenient for foreign players (sending cheques via post may also be impractical / dubious in some countries),
it is a tangible benefit to organisers if this is already set-up (especially when handing over to new organisers at the end of their tenure),
it is more clear what is actually going on at some of these tournaments - statistics would be more easily compiled for tournaments to enable accurate assessment of chess activity,
entrants can see their own entry (rather than having to send a SAE to the organiser, wasting more time).
Personally, I don't think many people have an excuse for not being able to enter online. There are internet cafes in most towns now, and libraries also provide the internet free of charge. There's also mobile phones to access the web for those always on the move! People should be able to pay for other people to enter too though (e.g. for a clubmate,) then I think you will find that, really, anybody should be able to enter online. It should not be a seen as a barrier to overcome, because, well, it isn't!

[Paolo Casaschi]

This is all pretty easy to do, tbh, best with either Javascript / Jquery. It's basically simple form validation; there will even be ready-made solutions, e.g. a simple Joomla site with some forms. This could all be done in about a day by a good coder...

It might be worth looking at what has been done by other federations, a few are very advanced at using the web.

I can refer to the Italian Chess Federation that provides a portal for chess organizers to manage their tournaments. What a tournament organizer gets is:
- an homepage for your tournament
- a registration form
- ability to host pairings, results, games and live games
It is mainly oriented to small/mediums size events that just want to be up and running on the web quickly and with no costs. It's good for the chess player as well, you have a default place to look for upcoming events and past results

http://www.torneionline.com/tornei/

Providing a comprehensive service (rather than stopping at player registrations) certainly increases the adoption rate.

The main cost would be the initial development, beyond that the hosting cost would probably be minimal, likely already covered by the current hosting of the ECF main site (you dont need much space and, unfortunately, chess sites of small tournaments dont generate huge amount of traffic).

[David Sedgwick]

It might be worth looking at what has been done by other federations, a few are very advanced at using the web.

I can refer to the Italian Chess Federation that provides a portal for chess organizers to manage their tournaments. What a tournament organizer gets is:
- an homepage for your tournament
- a registration form
- ability to host pairings, results, games and live games
It is mainly oriented to small/mediums size events that just want to be up and running on the web quickly and with no costs. It's good for the chess player as well, you have a default place to look for upcoming events and past results

http://www.torneionline.com/tornei/

Providing a comprehensive service (rather than stopping at player registrations) certainly increases the adoption rate.

Each according to his own. Personally I don't like that site at all.

However, I do like both the Italian Chess Federation's main site at http://www.federscacchi.it/ and the Italian arbiters' site at http://www.arbitriscacchi.com/

[Adam Raoof]

When I have played in Dutch tournaments there has been something called a 'place prize' awarded to the person who finished 50th, 75th, 100th in the tournament crosstable - more like a random (but significant) prize that anyone could win, and the outcome of which nobody could predict with certainty. Perhaps a variant of that might work over a longer series of events in a Prix?

[Sean Hewitt]

When I have played in Dutch tournaments there has been something called a 'place prize' awarded to the person who finished 50th, 75th, 100th in the tournament crosstable - more like a random (but significant) prize that anyone could win, and the outcome of which nobody could predict with certainty. Perhaps a variant of that might work over a longer series of events in a Prix?

I go back to my previous questions : Why? What does it achieve?

It seems to me you could do the same thing by holding a raffle and do away with all the mucking around with chess sets.