Chess Masters: the Endgame

[Nick Ivell]

I will be frank and say that I fell asleep. Serves me right for relaxing on the sofa.

[Neill Cooper]

Having now watched the first two programmes I think it is great! They have been creative in the programme structure - it is not just games but also problems. The King + 3 Pawn challenge has clearly engaged quite a few forumites!

Internet chess has changed the experience of players new to Over the Board chess - they now know about moving the king first to castle and chess clocks, but not that chess is one handed. More significantly they do not know about the 'touch piece, move piece rule' as neither Chess.com nor lichess.org has that rule.

Compared to most of the millions of chess players in the UK they are Chess Masters. As an illustration Wilson's school at present has 226 rated players - however 45 are no longer pupils at the school. Whilst 5 of the present pupils are rated over 2100, the vast majority (157) are below 1500. Going out to the wider chess playing public (who might not just have the board round the wrong way but also King and Queen etc) I would expect an even lower fraction to be playing at anything like ECF1500 standard. Very few of the keen chess players at my local primary school would be above ECF500.

I do wonder how many stronger players even applied to play. Anyone here? The womans hour interview says it was the easiest casting they ever ever had to do and having a diverse group of players was straightforward.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I do wonder how many stronger players even applied to play. Anyone here? The womans hour interview says it was the easiest casting they ever ever had to do and having a diverse group of players was straightforward.

12 players. You can see the boxes they were looking to tick. Different ages, ethnicities, backgrounds, nationalities (the Scots and Welsh thing). Some 'class' elements, possibly.

There were boxes they ended up not ticking because 12 only goes so far, but yes, very diverse. An even split between the sexes (there is a caveat there which adds to the diversity, but I am not mentioning yet as it involves the players in the second heat).

I considered applying (but did not). Some other deaf players I know were aware. Not sure if they applied. It would be good to see a blind or deaf-blind player at some point, and see how the producers handle that.

Surely they had a "you must be a relative beginner" clause, as even a moderately strong player would sweep the board, so to speak. But some are returning to chess from childhood. They must have checked official ratings to be sure they were not getting a ringer? Maybe there is a strong player in there who is pretending? *TRAITORS THEME MUSIC PLAYS*

[NickFaulks]

Compared to most of the millions of chess players in the UK they are Chess Masters.

Sorry, Chess Master is a defined term. There is no Relative Chess Master title.

[Ian Thompson]

They must have checked official ratings to be sure they were not getting a ringer?

There was a comment during the Woman's Hour interview that the players were fairly evenly matched because their ratings were all within about 200 points of each other.

Not surprisingly, they didn't say which ratings. I'd guess the only organisation that all the players might be members of is chess.com, so hopefully it was that because comparing one player's ECF rating with another's FIDE rating and another's chess.com rating wouldn't be reliable.

[Roger de Coverly]

Surely they had a "you must be a relative beginner" clause, as even a moderately strong player would sweep the board, so to speak. But some are returning to chess from childhood. They must have checked official ratings to be sure they were not getting a ringer? Maybe there is a strong player in there who is pretending?

I think the forum has been able to identify most if not all the players. There is in fact a Master in there, by virtue of a WCM title acquired at an Olympiad.

With David Howell and Matthew Carr involved, it might be difficult for someone of 2000 plus strength to slip through. Their selection criterion didn't appear to require refugees. Had it done so, that could have been a risk,

[LawrenceCooper]

Surely they had a "you must be a relative beginner" clause, as even a moderately strong player would sweep the board, so to speak. But some are returning to chess from childhood. They must have checked official ratings to be sure they were not getting a ringer? Maybe there is a strong player in there who is pretending? *TRAITORS THEME MUSIC PLAYS*

If they had a relative beginner clause then they failed miserably. You only have to look at the standard of some of the chess played online from players with thousands of games to see it is way below the level of those on the programme.

[Geoff Chandler]

I knew from a preview the 8 Queens was appearing and it would be examined on the open night at the Edinburgh Club (Every Tuesday) I memorised a simple pattern. All Knight moves apart and declared after listening to a few struggling with it that I could do it blindfold. I turned my back and gave them the Qa2,Qb4,Qc6 etc solution and have now my name is now whispered in awe.

K2Q3k/6Q1/2Q5/7Q/1Q6/4Q3/Q7/5Q2 b - - 0 1

I had to add the Kings, the fen producer here does not allow a fen without Kings although illegal positions are OK.

The five Queens problem might pop up. Place 5 Queens on the board so every square is covered and no Queen is attacking each other. That one is easier to remember. Qe5 and the other four Queens a Knights move away. Qf7, Qc6, Qg4 and Qd3.

I wonder if they will include a Knights Tour. Hmmm...I'll give the Tuesday night a miss if that one appears.

[Mick Norris]

What about the Pawn Race puzzle. I should know if this is a draw with best play. I think it is. Both kings end up having to shuffle around after the pawn moves run out, but maybe I am missing a forced zugzwang somewhere. It is a great pity that both of those 'games' ended with early blunders. I was hoping for a stalemate!

I'm pretty certain it should be decisive, from memory I think it's a win for White. Believe it or not Gary O'Grady is actually the expert in this endgame, and he used to take great amusement challenging the titled players (including some very strong GMs, possibly David Howell as well, certainly he beat me) at Bunratty, usually winning from either side of the board.

I would also think that Lula and Caitlin are stronger than Claire, based on what we've seen so far. However Claire has shown herself to be a bit more patient with the 'puzzles'.

I heard that Kel might be one of the stronger players in the next group, I guess we'll see.

Kel has had a busy week; Sunday he did the train/replacement bus trip from Bolton to Yor to play for G Man v Cleveland in the u2050 county match; last night he played for Bolton at Chorlton in the cup semifinal, where Bogdan Lalic debuted for Bolton (on board 2 )

[Kevin Thurlow]

"There is no Relative Chess Master title."

But now you've said it, someone in the island volcanic crater where FIDE management lurks, someone is surely saying, "Tovarisch! We must have a Relative Chess Master title."

[Ian Thompson]

Compared to most of the millions of chess players in the UK they are Chess Masters.

Sorry, Chess Master is a defined term. There is no Relative Chess Master title.

They should have called them Chess Maestro's. Their standard of play probably does meet the rating requirement for that title.

[Alistair Campbell]

I enjoyed Episode 2 a bit more, but I guess that was inevitable:

There was less need for introductory chat and consequently more action.
I had developed some familiarity with the competitors – one can be more predisposed to some.
Sue wasn’t having to try so hard and came over as more sympathetic.

I think the puzzles were fun, although the choice of the “8 Queens” was interesting. Whilst a queentessentially(?!) chessy problem, unlike a Sudoku or a Crossword (c.f. “The Imitation Game”), there must have been a chance that one of the candidates would know it already and remember the trick which would have spoiled the competitive aspect.

But the underlying issue remains – “proper” players want authenticity and accept dullness. The producers feel the need for gimmicks.

Are chess programmes popular elsewhere – in places like Iceland or Russia? Would this be because chess is already relatively popular, and TV is playing to an existing market rather than trying to create one?

[Alistair Campbell]

Regarding Master titles, there are now the Arena titles – I think these are FIDE Online titles – not sure if anyone takes them particularly seriously or how they equate to OTB ones. Vanity titles perhaps?

Is there still a British Master title? There used to be Scottish Master titles, but those date from the days when FIDE titles were next to impossible to obtain, or possibly deemed as foreign and hence untrustworthy.

And I fondly remember the musings in the Scottish Chess magazine of one self-style MM (a “middlegrade” master) – tales of life as a typical club player. I’m not sure how you could qualify for such a title – scoring exactly 2.5/5 in a weekend major, say, or perhaps experiencing a number of specified mishaps in a midweek league match.

[Roger de Coverly]

Regarding Master titles, there are now the Arena titles – I think these are FIDE Online titles – not sure if anyone takes them particularly seriously or how they equate to OTB ones. Vanity titles perhaps?

full details are at

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B11FO ... RatingBand

To summarise

AGM 2000
AIM 1700
AFM 1400
ACM 1100

They are also used as an incentive to get players and participation on the FIDE Arena site, which otherwise has much less activity than chess.com and lichess .

Is there still a British Master title?

That became defunct in the 1980s
The ECF has an English National Master equivalent
https://www.englishchess.org.uk/master-points-system/

[GrahamStuart]

What about the Pawn Race puzzle. I should know if this is a draw with best play. I think it is. Both kings end up having to shuffle around after the pawn moves run out, but maybe I am missing a forced zugzwang somewhere. It is a great pity that both of those 'games' ended with early blunders. I was hoping for a stalemate!

I'm pretty certain it should be decisive, from memory I think it's a win for White. Believe it or not Gary O'Grady is actually the expert in this endgame, and he used to take great amusement challenging the titled players (including some very strong GMs, possibly David Howell as well, certainly he beat me) at Bunratty, usually winning from either side of the board.

I would also think that Lula and Caitlin are stronger than Claire, based on what we've seen so far. However Claire has shown herself to be a bit more patient with the 'puzzles'.

I heard that Kel might be one of the stronger players in the next group, I guess we'll see.

Kel has had a busy week; Sunday he did the train/replacement bus trip from Bolton to Yor to play for G Man v Cleveland in the u2050 county match; last night he played for Bolton at Chorlton in the cup semifinal, where Bogdan Lalic debuted for Bolton (on board 2 )

If Kel is in the group of next contestants I would say he is significantly (200 to 250 rp) stronger than any of the players in the first group. It would be strange to have one group much higher rated than the other and would say he is a big favourite.

https://rating.englishchess.org.uk/v2/n ... de=351425A

I enjoyed this week's show, but the playoff game on Iplayer showed that Navi was struggling knowing how to win the game when he just kept moving his Queen rather than push his passed d pawn.

The show also made me dip into the old Master Game on YouTube. I forgot that they did not show the whole games in this either, although all available in CB. Apart from the graphics these are great to watch again, especially highlighting the different styles of the players involved.

I am enjoying the show, and it is great to see chess on mainstream TV again.