French Chess Federation investigates cheating players

[David Sedgwick]

I was thinking more about club chess though. It seems to me there's more potential incentive to cheat in the amateur game (non-financial) and more opportunity to get away with it because most of us - certainly me - wouldn't know what a real monroi looked like in the first place so couldn't spot a fake.

Perhaps I'm being naive, but is cheating really a serious problem in club chess played by amateurs, with little or no money at stake?

It's easier to cheat at bridge than at chess, but most people don't.

We're talking about recreational activities, which we play for pleasure. What pleasure is there to be derived from results obtained by cheating? I've felt for a long time that the day I find myself cheating at either game will be the day that I give it up.

Admittedly the above logic would suggest that amateur players would be unlikely to cheat at online chess, whereas you (Jonathan) have indicated that some apparently do.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about adult players. Most of us did stupid things occasionally when we were teenagers.

[Roger de Coverly]

Perhaps, I'm being naive, but is cheating really a serious problem in club chess played by amateurs, with little or no money at stake?

I wouldn't have thought so. There's always been the option for weak players to seek advice from stronger ones, so do computers make any difference?

Admittedly the above logic would suggest that amateur players would be unlikely to cheat at online chess, whereas you (Jonathan) have indicated that some apparently do.

The major issue is probably with turn based chess ( correspondence by another name). There you get variations in rules as to whether, for instance, blunder checking or using computer generated opening novelties is legal or not.

[Stewart Reuben]

Jonathan Bryant >Anyway, doesn't it strike you as odd that mobile phones are banned but monroi devices are OK?<

No, the latter are a type of scoresheet. They do not make irritating sounds. DGT boards are allowed - even encouraged.

E Michael White. The Monroi website may pose security threats. But does this mean the device does as well? Obviously a malcicious hacker could interfere with the information going from the device to the computer. But people can do that with ordinary scoresheets anyway. Apart from accessing a database or analytical engine illegally, is there any other way the Monroi can be used for cheating?
Stewart Reuben

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Apart from accessing a database or analytical engine illegally, is there any other way the Monroi can be used for cheating?

I suppose you could play your opponent's move for him or her while they are away from the board, but in most settings someone will spot you doing this, and this applies to DGT boards as well. In fact, it applies to all forms of chess. However, in most forms of chess, you would have to write down your opponent's move in their handwriting on their scoresheet. For the Monrois, you don't have to do this. Unless the Monroi was configured to be locked by the player if they have to leave the board (e.g. to go to the toilet). If this wasn't the case, you could "enter" their move for them. And then let the arbiter decide which player is lying when the inevitable dispute arises. The reason this probably hasn't been done is because this is the sort of cheating that necessitates a dispute. The forms of cheating that work are the ones where the opponent doesn't realise what has happened.

(the reverse of this is a person trying to take back a move by insisting that the opponent played the move instead of them).

[Jonathan Bryant]

Admittedly the above logic would suggest that amateur players would be unlikely to cheat at online chess, whereas you (Jonathan) have indicated that some apparently do.

I should say, for accuracy's sake, that what I've pointed out is that some people get themselves banned from internet chess sites. Whether they've been cheating or not is another question. E.g. even if a chess site says "Mr. AW" has been cheating, there would always be the possibility that the website were wrong.

The rest of this thread I'll try get back to tomorrow morning.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Admittedly the above logic would suggest that amateur players would be unlikely to cheat at online chess, whereas you (Jonathan) have indicated that some apparently do.

I should say, for accuracy's sake, that what I've pointed out is that some people get themselves banned from internet chess sites. Whether they've been cheating or not is another question. E.g. even if a chess site says "Mr. AW" has been cheating, there would always be the possibility that the website were wrong.

The rest of this thread I'll try get back to tomorrow morning.

The other point is that some people act very differently online to how they would over the board. I won't get into the specifics of the case you mention (he is a team-mate and friend of mine, and I know little about what happened anyway, and have little wish to know, quite frankly), but I could well believe that some people could be tempted to cheat in online chess who wouldn't dream of doing so over the board.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthr ... 601&page=1

[Roger de Coverly]

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthr ... 601&page=1

I'm aware that there are a few people who post both here and the redhotpawn board. The general impression I get from that board is that the general standard of chess knowledge, understanding and skill is pretty low. The further impression is that anyone who plays to a half decent standard is immediately accused of cheating.

Here's a challenge. Suppose a player uses his own or for that matter other players' games as reference during play on rhp. That presumably is legal by normal postal play precedents. Suppose though that the game has computer inspired notes containing possibly better lines of play. Suppose also that these lines haven't been played in recorded over the board chess. Is it legal to use such notes?

Aleks Wohl has a recent example of how a probably computer inspired novelty upset someone.
http://doubleroo.blogspot.com/2011/03/k ... ie-of.html

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

The further impression is that anyone who plays to a half decent standard is immediately accused of cheating.

I don't think that's fair. There are a few people who check the games of people who get a high rating on RHP with Fritz / Rybka to see what the move match-up is. If the moves that the user chooses consistently matches one of the top three choices of the engine, that's when the cheating accusations start.

NorthernLad, who is currently sitting at #4 in the RHP top players list, has an ECF grade of around 200. There are several others graded 180+ who are in the top 100 there.

[Jonathan Bryant]

The general impression I get from that board is that the general standard of chess knowledge, understanding and skill is pretty low.

That's certainly true. It's I was able to get over 2100 without too much trouble. Into the top 100 IIRC and well into the top few % of active players on the site.

The further impression is that anyone who plays to a half decent standard is immediately accused of cheating.

I was never accused of cheating. Not to my knowledge anyway. I suspect the reason for this is that I obviously wasn't. When I checked my games after they were played I discovered I'd made the most appalling errors - correspondence chess notwithstanding.

At the very top (the top 10 say, rather than top 100) there are a lot of exposed cheats it's true. There are genuine players there, though, as has been pointed out.


Btw, RHP don't confirm the reason why they've banned players these days. I don't know why they stopped doing it. Concerns over potential legal action perhaps.

[Roger de Coverly]

Btw, RHP don't confirm the reason why they've banned players these days. I don't know why they stopped doing it. Concerns over potential legal action perhaps.

I get the impression from its writings that the Streatham blog is concerned that a county association has, as one of its match captain, someone who has been banned from turn based chess servers.

Isn't your solution to attend the AGM and propose his dismissal? Such a motion would presumably stand a greater chance of success if a replacement volunteer was standing by.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

I've just noticed this statement on Adrian Waldock's profile on chess.com (http://www.chess.com/members/view/awaldock):

I have set up an on-line version of Richmond & Twickenham Chess Club. We are playing on line matches from June 2009.

Has anyone here played in an online match? I can imagine it might be very handy for some matches in our local league.

[Jonathan Bryant]

I get the impression from its writings that the Streatham blog is concerned that a county association has, as one of its match captain, someone who has been banned from turn based chess servers.

Isn't your solution to attend the AGM and propose his dismissal? Such a motion would presumably stand a greater chance of success if a replacement volunteer was standing by.

Well that was my article you reference. The action you propose is certainly one solution, but I'm not sure it's one I would choose. The question for me is - is it appropriate that a person who has been banned from an internet site or two to act as a county captain? I'm not sure of the answer to that, but I think it's worth asking.

I could well believe that some people could be tempted to cheat in online chess who wouldn't dream of doing so over the board.

I'm absolutely sure that you're right.

[Jonathan Bryant]

Perhaps, I'm being naive, but is cheating really a serious problem in club chess played by amateurs, with little or no money at stake?

I wouldn't have thought so.

Nor me. It depends how you define "serious", of course, but I find it hard to imagine that anything more than a tiny proportion of amateur chessers will cheat during club matches or even tournaments.

I do think, however, that the number of cases is growing (see Stewart Reuben's comments earlier) and will continue to do so. Moreover, a small number of cases could potentially have a large impact on club chess as we know it.

[David Sedgwick]

I get the impression from its writings that the Streatham blog is concerned that a county association has, as one of its match captain, someone who has been banned from turn based chess servers.

Isn't your solution to attend the AGM and propose his dismissal? Such a motion would presumably stand a greater chance of success if a replacement volunteer was standing by.

The appropriate procedure within Surrey is not precisely that which you indicate. I'm in contact with Jonathan B privately about this. For the present at any rate, I won't say any more here.