Giving Queens

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Kevin Thurlow
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Giving Queens

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jan 10, 2025 6:52 pm

"As a slight diversion, my own set has a slightly misshapen pawn. What are the rules on replacing this during a game as soon as an alternative is available?"

A good point - I played somewhere within the last year where the "white" pawns in a wooden set were quite a good ethnic mix, with about 5 a fairly similar colour, and the other three increasingly darker (one almost as dark as the lightest opposing pawn - "black" had the same issue). The opponent and I agreed that if a pawn were captured, we would substitute any wrongly coloured pawn, with the captured one where appropriate.

David Fowler
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:06 pm

Re: Giving Queens

Post by David Fowler » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:05 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:31 pm
David Fowler wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:15 pm
They are different in that a football referee needs to observe every second of a game whereas a chess arbiter does not need to.
Yes they do otherwise, how, for example, could they make a correct ruling on whether or not a player touched a piece?

From the 2024 Arbiters' Manual:

Also, the following requirements can be considered as very important for the arbiters in a competition:

To observe as many games as possible during every round of the competition. Arbiters have to take care of the games that they are responsible for, to observe and to check the games’ progress (especially when there is time trouble). It is not acceptable for the arbiters to leave the playing area every 10 or 15 minutes to smoke or vape, nor for any conversations with friends, spectators, officials, or other persons, nor to leave their sector unattended in order to go and watch other games in another part of the playing hall. It is not acceptable for the arbiters to stay seated in their chairs reading newspapers or books (even chess books!), nor to sit in front of a computer, surfing the internet, etc., leaving their games without supervision. It is also not acceptable for the arbiters to speak on their mobiles in the playing hall during the games. The Laws of Chess regarding mobile phones are valid not only for the players, captains and spectators, but for the arbiters as well.

Certainly, the biggest problems during games are caused because of the absence or the lack of attention of the arbiters and thus the ignorance of what actually happened in the case of an incident. How is an absent Arbiter able to make a fair decision in a dispute between two players caused because of a touched piece (e.g. the opponents do not agree that the player said “j’adoube” in advance)? Without knowing what actually happened, the Arbiter has a 50% probability of making a correct decision and 50% of making the wrong one, losing in this way his/her credibility and the trust of the players.
Ok, poor choice of phrase ('does not need to'). A chess arbiter should observe as much of a game as is possible / practical given the circumstances of the event (at most events they are unlikely to be able to observe every second of any game), which is not the same as a football referee.

David Fowler
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:06 pm

Re: Giving Queens

Post by David Fowler » Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:28 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2025 12:48 pm

When you ask for consistency in football referees, do you mean within a game, from game to game, or from referee to referee?

All.

Common sense used to be valued, now it appears to be discouraged.

It was always valued by the beneficiaries.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 22600
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Giving Queens

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 10, 2025 9:45 pm

The USCF are a law unto themselves as regards Laws of Chess and playing conditions.

If however you google for "uscf rule book upside down" you come across this wording.
25
US Chess Federation’s Official Rules of Chess, V 7th Edition, 8-21-20
TD TIP: Note that promotion is in no way related to other pieces remaining on the chessboard; for example, a player may have two or more queens, three or more knights, or two bishops on diagonals of the same color. The choice of the piece is not final until it has touched the promotion square on the board (See 9D also 10H).
8F7. Promoted piece not available.
If the desired piece is not available to replace a promoted pawn, the player may stop both clocks in order to locate that piece and place it on the board. A player who cannot quickly find such a piece may request the assistance of the director. It is common practice, however, to play using an upside-down rook for a second queen. In the absence of the player’s announcement to the contrary, an upside-down rook shall be considered a queen. It is improper to press the clock to start the opponent’s time with the pawn still on the last rank. If this is done, the opponent may immediately restart the player’s clock without moving.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 4252
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Giving Queens

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Jan 10, 2025 10:10 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2025 9:45 pm
The USCF are a law unto themselves as regards Laws of Chess and playing conditions.

If however you google for "uscf rule book upside down" you come across this wording.
25
US Chess Federation’s Official Rules of Chess, V 7th Edition, 8-21-20
TD TIP: Note that promotion is in no way related to other pieces remaining on the chessboard; for example, a player may have two or more queens, three or more knights, or two bishops on diagonals of the same color. The choice of the piece is not final until it has touched the promotion square on the board (See 9D also 10H).
8F7. Promoted piece not available.
If the desired piece is not available to replace a promoted pawn, the player may stop both clocks in order to locate that piece and place it on the board. A player who cannot quickly find such a piece may request the assistance of the director. It is common practice, however, to play using an upside-down rook for a second queen. In the absence of the player’s announcement to the contrary, an upside-down rook shall be considered a queen. It is improper to press the clock to start the opponent’s time with the pawn still on the last rank. If this is done, the opponent may immediately restart the player’s clock without moving.
In the United States it's common for players to have to provide their own sets at tournaments. As the organisers aren't responsible for providing equipment their rules would need to cover what happens if the players haven't got the required piece to promote to. An upside-down rook being any piece the player says it is would go some way to solving that problem.

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