Todays Chess Quest.

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Geoff Chandler
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Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:25 pm

Hi,

'Apparently' (I was not there so cannot vouch for the absolute truth but I do believe it. It came from Albert Kapengut )

In the Round 3 game between Tal and Stein at the 1964 Amsterdam Interzonal the players agreed a draw before play began.
During the game the players were going through the motions of 'thinking' when Tal went for a stroll around the boards and
bumped into Pachman. (there is a joke in there somewhere about bumping into Pacman).

Pachman congratulates Tal. Tal is surprised. Pachman reels off a winning variation.
The variation Pachman told Tal is the same variation Tal and Stein had agreed to play out over the board.

Tal goes back to the board and plays something different. Now it is Stein's turned to be surprised. The game continues in
a different way to what the players had agreed. Tal offers a draw. A miffed Stein declines. The game was eventually drawn.

Original source here:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/the- ... nged-draws

Does anybody know, or hazard a guess, at what point in the game the Tal and Pachman conversation took place.



If you cannot be bothered questing this Sunday Afternoon then you might like to brush up on your Chess History.

https://www.redhotpawn.com/chess-blog/l ... ogpost.410

NickFaulks
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:40 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:25 pm
Does anybody know, or hazard a guess, at what point in the game the Tal and Pachman conversation took place.
No, difficult to believe it exists.
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Leonard Barden
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Leonard Barden » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:24 pm

I agree with Nick that this story is highly unlikely given the type of position in the game where you would not expect any blockbuster novelty.

However on the subject of conversations during the Amsterdam 1964 interzonal, I was present during the last few days as a spectating journalist and can remember a discussion I had during the final round.

I had known David Bronstein for some years and when he saw me watching he came over and complained rather pitifully that he could not concentrate because of a sense of deja vu.

Six years earlier in the final round of Portoroz 1958 Bronstein had lost to the Filipino outsider Rudolfo Cardoso and so failed to qualify for the candidates. Now in Amsterdam in the final round he was playing another outsider, Oscar Quinones from Peru, again needing to win to have a candidates chance.

The poor man was a nervous wreck, and the Bronstein-Quinones game ended in a draw. As it happened, even an extra half point would not have sufficed due to the then rule limiting the number of candidates from one country, but I still remember being shocked that such a great player could be reduced to telling his woes to an English journalist in mid-game.

Richard Bates
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:04 pm

If the story were true, then I would guess it took place at some point prior to move 8.

NickFaulks
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:55 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:04 pm
If the story were true, then I would guess it took place at some point prior to move 8.
But those positions have been repeated hundreds of times, with no sign of a big improvement.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Richard Bates
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Richard Bates » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:59 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:55 pm
Richard Bates wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:04 pm
If the story were true, then I would guess it took place at some point prior to move 8.
But those positions have been repeated hundreds of times, with no sign of a big improvement.
If they had a preplanned draw then I imagine it would have been down a very specific line, perhaps ending in a flashy perpetual or something. And (if the story were true) there could easily have been a big hole in that specific line. On, say, move 24.

NickFaulks
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:13 pm

But how would Pachman have known about that? He was commenting on a position already visible on the board.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:38 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:13 pm
But how would Pachman have known about that? He was commenting on a position already visible on the board.
Checking the game with an engine there's an alternative at move 17



where 17. f3 or 17. Nd3 may be better than the move played. But that's quarter of a pawn stuff, not decisive advantage. Did Pachman ever divulge his supposed novelty, as move 16 was where the Tal-Stein game became unique?

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm

Hi Roger,

We, at the moment, only have the information the source link gave. Sadly no move number.

As you might suspect from my first post I was sceptical but came around to accepting it.
I cannot see what anyone has to gain from fabricating such a tale.

Before posting I thought I would spot the shot but nothing tactical is on.

So then figured it to be a deeper win. One of those annoying positions that the GM's dismiss as won with a casual wave of
a hand and you stare at a position that does not fill you with confidence you could win it. Lose it yes, but no clear win.

I looked in my D.B. for a position from move 8 onward that had been played before 1964 to see if a win was known.
Nothing conclusive. So the line may be tucked away in one of Pachman's books.

I'd trust a computer to find it today but back then it may have a neat missed refutation.
Computers are busting or improving combinations from the past all the time. So if there was
a cute move but has a hole in it the computer won't even show it as one of it's top 5 suggestions.
But there again, if there was a juicy looking unsound shot on I'd see it - I have a gift for unsound sacs.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:56 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm
I cannot see what anyone has to gain from fabricating such a tale.

It denigrates the reputations of Stein and Tal, Pachman as well. Fischer claimed with justification, if this story is correct , that Soviet players would have prearranged draws. Then you have Pachman and Tal discussing the game whilst in progress.

NickFaulks
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:26 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm
Nothing conclusive.
Sorry, Geoff. There is absolutely nothing at all.
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NickFaulks
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:29 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:56 pm
Fischer claimed with justification, if this story is correct , that Soviet players would have prearranged draws.
Has anyone ever actually doubted or denied that?
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David Williams
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by David Williams » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:31 am

If Tal and Stein both thought it was a draw when they concocted it, why couldn't they just play it out anyway? The worst that happens is that Tal looks to have missed an opportunity - which he supposedly did anyway when he varied.

Do grandmasters really discuss each others games at length while in play? For those of us who wouldn't dream of giving the slightest hint of an opinion on an ongoing game this comes as a bit of a shock.

Leonard Barden
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by Leonard Barden » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:57 am

Mikhail Tal and another legendary player GM Leonid Stein agreed to a draw and created an exciting little game in a very topical theoretical variation, which they were supposed to reproduce the next day. When the actual game started everything went according to the plan. The grandmasters imitated deep thinking and the position on the board promised a lot of blood.


The above text is from the original chess.com article by GM Serper which describes the alleged incident. But the description of the game (exciting....very topical....lot of blood) is completely at odds with the actual rather pedestrian moves shown above. That allied to the complete absence of evidence for the supposed blockbuster refutation makes the whole story not credible.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Todays Chess Quest.

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm
I cannot see what anyone has to gain from fabricating such a tale.
People make up stories all the time
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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