Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:11 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:03 am
Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:12 am
For example, if the delay is ten seconds, the clock waits for ten seconds each move before the base time starts going down"
Don't the DGT's implement this by adding the delay? So it's your opponent's move and your clock shows 10 seconds. When he presses the clock, your time jumps to 20 seconds, but resets back to 10 if you move within 10 seconds.
Yes. The advantage is that unlike increments, you don't accumulate time but you still have X seconds per move as a minimum. This reduces the likelihood of games over running. With 60 minutes plus 30 seconds at Hampstead we get the occasional long game, but very few.
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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:40 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:03 am
Don't the DGT's implement this by adding the delay? So it's your opponent's move and your clock shows 10 seconds. When he presses the clock, your time jumps to 20 seconds, but resets back to 10 if you move within 10 seconds.
I've never seen one that works like that. It would be very confusing if it did.

The ones I've used reset the time after you've moved to show how much time you've got left to make your next move before losing on time. For example, your clock shows you've got 30 seconds left and the increment is 10 seconds. When your opponent starts your clock the 30 seconds will start counting down. If you move after 5 seconds your clock will jump from 25 seconds back to 30 seconds. If you move after 12 seconds you clock will jump from 18 seconds to 28 seconds. So the clock always shows how much time you've got left before losing on time.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:10 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:12 am
Simple delay (often called Bronstein mode) is much better for league games
With a 10 second increment, I doubt that this will make much difference. Players will generally use nearly all of their allotted ten seconds.

The main argument against delay in lieu of increment is that players outside the US, where they have known nothing else, generally dislike it, because it makes it harder to play sensible moves ( and the avoidance of total rubbish is our aim ). I suggest that in terms of efficient use of thinking time, a 15 second delay might actually be equivalent to a 10 second increment - which of course destroys the point.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:46 pm

"It is used in some congresses as we have done at Thanet for past three or four years with few problems as far as I am aware although Kevin can confirm. If there were, I’m sure we’d scrap it. Of course, it may be different where you have three games in one day. I think we use 90 mins + 30 secs. I do remember one occasion a couple of years ago when Alan Merry and Martin Taylor were still playing until about 15 mins before the next round was due to start."

Apart from Martin and Alan overrunning (and it was an exciting game), I don't recall any issues. One player politely asked when the draw for the next round would be up, so I explained, and I told Martin and Alan's next opponents about the delay to their games, and they immediately said, "Of course". The "Open" players at Thanet are rarely a problem!

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:55 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:46 pm
"It is used in some congresses as we have done at Thanet for past three or four years with few problems as far as I am aware although Kevin can confirm. If there were, I’m sure we’d scrap it. Of course, it may be different where you have three games in one day. I think we use 90 mins + 30 secs. I do remember one occasion a couple of years ago when Alan Merry and Martin Taylor were still playing until about 15 mins before the next round was due to start."

Apart from Martin and Alan overrunning (and it was an exciting game), I don't recall any issues. One player politely asked when the draw for the next round would be up, so I explained, and I told Martin and Alan's next opponents about the delay to their games, and they immediately said, "Of course". The "Open" players at Thanet are rarely a problem!
The most efficient way to handle that case is to do the pairings based on the likely result and print them off so you can publish immediately when the game ends. Unless it ends with a different result, of course!

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:23 pm

"The most efficient way to handle that case is to do the pairings based on the likely result and print them off so you can publish immediately when the game ends. Unless it ends with a different result, of course!"

True, but unfortunately, I don't think there was a likely result! And of course it was top board - it really helps if it's near the bottom. Luckily, it was a fairly small section (only 20 or so players) so it wasn't too arduous.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:14 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:23 pm
True, but unfortunately, I don't think there was a likely result!
I have never been in this position, so perhaps I'm talking nonsense, but at the cost of some printer ink could you not do pairings based on all three results?

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:08 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:14 am
I have never been in this position, so perhaps I'm talking nonsense, but at the cost of some printer ink could you not do pairings based on all three results?
Using Swiss Manager where there's an unfinished game from a previous round which appeared unlikely to finish within a reasonable time-scale (perhaps something like K+Q v K+R+N+2Ps) I think it should be theoretically possible to set up three alternative sets of pairings for the next round and then, when the game finishes, immediately discard the two SM files with the incorrect results. In practice I'd be rather surprised if anyone did this. And, of course, more than one unfinished game - when the number of scenarios increases exponentially - causes it to be totally impractical.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:38 am

In Swiss manager from the end of the final game to posting the new pairings is about ten seconds, or if you have my printer about ten minutes!
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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:16 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:38 am
In Swiss manager from the end of the final game to posting the new pairings is about ten seconds, or if you have my printer about ten minutes!
Leyland rapidplay, being a poor impoverished congress, cannot afford printer ink so just displays the pairings on large screen monitors. Of course, such a solution would be unreasonable for larger, richer congresses.
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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:05 am

"Leyland rapidplay, being a poor impoverished congress, cannot afford printer ink so just displays the pairings on large screen monitors. Of course, such a solution would be unreasonable for larger, richer congresses."

One of the problems with the printed lists is that they always seem to be in Times Roman 10, so nobody can see who they're playing. Screens are a good idea...

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:54 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:05 am

One of the problems with the printed lists is that they always seem to be in Times Roman 10, so nobody can see who they're playing.
Is it not possible for pairing print outs to be in landscape in a much larger font?

I'm sure I've seen pairing cards still in use, not to actually make pairings, but to display them. When the names are written with a marker pen, you can read them from some distance. That's helpful when there's a crowd of people trying to find their pairing.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:12 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:08 am
NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:14 am
I have never been in this position, so perhaps I'm talking nonsense, but at the cost of some printer ink could you not do pairings based on all three results?
Using Swiss Manager where there's an unfinished game from a previous round which appeared unlikely to finish within a reasonable time-scale (perhaps something like K+Q v K+R+N+2Ps) I think it should be theoretically possible to set up three alternative sets of pairings for the next round and then, when the game finishes, immediately discard the two SM files with the incorrect results. In practice I'd be rather surprised if anyone did this. And, of course, more than one unfinished game - when the number of scenarios increases exponentially - causes it to be totally impractical.
Yes, absolutely. But I've never been in the situation where the game hasn't ended by the time I've needed to generate set of pairings number 2. :)

I did this at the World Rapid & Blitz during the Rapid. It was pointless doing it for the Blitz.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:13 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:54 am
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:05 am

One of the problems with the printed lists is that they always seem to be in Times Roman 10, so nobody can see who they're playing.
Is it not possible for pairing print outs to be in landscape in a much larger font?
Yes, as you know - that's what I do at all my events.

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Re: Incremental controls - the `unlimited` game.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:03 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:13 am
Yes, as you know - that's what I do at all my events.
Perhaps the method should be passed on to your fellow arbiters.

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