In addition to...

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Steven DuCharme
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In addition to...

Post by Steven DuCharme » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:23 pm

the current draw protocols I propose a draw be automatic once both combatants have requested a draw :twisted:
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

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Michael Farthing
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm

That means if I were first to be offered a draw I would invariably refuse. If I went on to win, well and good. If at a later stage in the game I found myself to be losing still well and good. I would offer a draw myself and lo and behold it is guaranteed!

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Re: In addition to...

Post by John Upham » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:34 pm

Steven DuCharme wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:23 pm
the current draw protocols I propose a draw be automatic once both combatants have requested a draw :twisted:
The phrase "Back to the drawing board" springs to mind.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:05 am

Well this looks like being a short thread :)
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Richard Bates
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Richard Bates » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:37 am

It’s not actually as stupid as the ridicule would imply IMO. It could obviously be tweaked eg. the draw must be offered back within a fixed period, eg. 20 moves but if the aim is to avoid draws before the game was effectively played out it would be reasonably effective.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Michael Farthing » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:50 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:37 am
It’s not actually as stupid as the ridicule would imply IMO.
I meant to tease, not to ridicule. If it gave offence to Steven then I apologise - it was not my intention.

Peter Shaw
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Peter Shaw » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am

As someone who gets annoyed by people offering draws when they are clearly worse (even if it's not my game!), I would welcome any ideas to put a stop to it. At the moment there is no downside.

So how about this idea which I've just thought of: If someone offers a draw and goes on to lose they should score -0.5. If this rule was in place nobody would offer a draw if there was any realistic chance of losing which in my opinion is how it should be. Is there something in this or is it just nonsense?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:05 pm

Peter Shaw wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45 am
As someone who gets annoyed by people offering draws when they are clearly worse (even if it's not my game!), I would welcome any ideas to put a stop to it. At the moment there is no downside
If it happens just once, smile and play on (you don't even *have* to say anything)

Anybody who does it on a repeated basis is potentially breaching the laws of the game - and in a tournament a complaint to the arbiter would not be inappropriate. This is admittedly not possible in a league match, but in that case just firmly tell them to stop doing it?

(though to put it in context, only rarely has even the first happened in my personal experience - and the latter scenario never)
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JustinHorton
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Re: In addition to...

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:22 pm

It's happened to me a few times. There's not always been much point in complaining to the arbiter as their willingness to intervene varies quite a lot.

That said, I don't have any objection to people offering a draw when they're much worse. Why is that not a legitimate ploy?
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:42 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:22 pm
That said, I don't have any objection to people offering a draw when they're much worse. Why is that not a legitimate ploy?
It can be done as a bluff by much higher rated or stronger players when they think they are worse. If the weaker or lower rated players, do you take the draw and regret the opportunity to play for the win or decide discretion is the better part of valour? Match and tournament status can influence the decision as well.

The convention many players would follow is that if an initial offer of a draw is declined, you don't make another one unless the position has materially changed.

Contriving a repetition can sometimes be the easiest way of offering a draw.

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Re: In addition to...

Post by David Robertson » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:06 pm

Offering a draw is an exercise in manners.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:25 pm

"The convention many players would follow is that if an initial offer of a draw is declined, you don't make another one unless the position has materially changed."

I agree. Re Justin's comment, if I were arbiting and someone made repeated draw offers, I would treat it as a distraction. Of course you are relying on both players marking it on the score-sheet, or the offender telling the truth when asked...

I had a CC game a couple of years ago where an opponent offered draws on successive moves (in a lost position). I complained to the controller, who said he would do something if it happened again. The next draw offer came on the next move, so I claimed the game. The controller said that I couldn't claim the game, but he would warn the opponent. I told him that was not good enough. By now, I had discovered he played for the same club as the opponent! Anyway, I won a few moves later. Shortly after that ICCF introduced a rule, that as everyone now plays on a server, that if you offer a draw, the server does not allow you to offer another draw unless your opponent has offered me one in the mean time. Maybe that should be extended to OTB chess.

A friend suggests introducing a doubling cube, as in Backgammon, but added that it only works for 1 to 1 matches, else an 8 board match could finish 256-256!

NickFaulks
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Re: In addition to...

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:25 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:25 pm
A friend suggests introducing a doubling cube, as in Backgammon
That is an old idea and in my view not at all a bad one. In fact, I could claim to have originated it, although I'm sure that many others could say the same. It has never gained traction.

Nick Grey
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:57 pm

I think that a dubious draw offer should be rebuffed with you must be joking I am expecting you to resign. Many make the offer silently so ought to speak up!

Stewart Reuben
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Re: In addition to...

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:43 pm

It has previously been suggested that:
A draw offer cannot be retracted for 5 moves
A draw offer can only be retracted afer making a positive declaration, presumably after moving and before pressing the clock.

Recently I was offered a draw and laughed. Unfortunately I later blundered and it was eventually drawn.

Ron Rushbrook, probably in the 1950s, did suggest you could offer your opponent a fraction of the point. Perhaps 0.6 or 0.2. Then you could haggle. That would make Swiss Pairings simpler and more interesting, title norms different and prize distribution less complex.

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