5 Minutes on the Clock

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John Reyes
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5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by John Reyes » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm

One of my players in my club had this two issue in a league game of chess and wonder if anyone can help with what is the rule

1. When the venue phone was ringing I mentioned someone should switch it off, my opponent looked at me and he said: What can you do...


2. When I had less than 5 minutes left I paused the clock and I asked someone to write down my Chess moves, when we finished he said this is not a rule in the league

This is the MCF rules and wonder if anyone can help

7. PLAYING CONDITIONS FOR MATCHES

The home team shall provide reasonable playing conditions and set up the venue, equipment, etc., before the starting time. There should be sufficient sets, boards and clocks of appropriate design. Tables and chairs should be spaced to allow easy access. The venue should be reasonably quiet, clean, well lit and ventilated.

Mobile phones are allowed in the playing area. However they must be switched off for the duration of play. Match captains must remind players of this requirement immediately before the commencement of play.

If a player's phone rings audibly during his game then he automatically forfeits the game. If the opponent cannot win the game by any series of legal moves, it will be declared drawn.

{Advice to clubs: in the hopefully rare case of a genuine need to use a mobile phone occurring while a match is still in progress, the two team captains should be jointly consulted and their prior agreement obtained. Otherwise, in the event of a dispute arising, the MCF is likely to take the view that FIDE Rule 12.8 has been breached. FIDE Rule 12.8 - “Unless authorised by the arbiter, it is forbidden for anybody to use a mobile phone or any kind of communication device in the playing venue or any contiguous area designated by the arbiter.”

MCF requests that clubs remind their players that FIDE rules apply in the Manchester League (unless specifically altered by MCF Rules) - players found cheating will face sanctions (e.g. a 3 year ban). Important points to raise include:

1.‘other’ electronic devices are prohibited (if they are capable of generating or analysing a chess move, which include smart watches)
2.any such devices much be completely switched off for the duration of the match (not just the player’s own game)}

8. CLOCKS AND RATE OF PLAY

All boards in a match must be played using the same time limit.

For quickplay finishes, subject to the following paragraph, the total playing session shall be at least 2 hours and the quickplay finish shall be at least an additional 15 minutes. Typically under this rule, matches are played at 30 moves in 75 minutes each, then a 20 minutes quick-play finish.

A shorter session may be played by prior agreement between the captains, as long as the rate is sufficient for ECF standard-play grading.

[As things stand in 2018, the minimum for standard-play grading is either G/60’ or an incremental time limit such that a game of 60 moves will last at least 60 minutes]

The home team shall have the right to insist that an incremental time control be used. In this case, matches typically would be played under a time control of all moves in 1 hour 20 minutes with a 15 second increment per move starting at move 1 (G80' + 15”).

{Advice to clubs: If the home captain opts to use incremental time limits, prior notice (including the time limit to be used) should be given to the away captain at least a week in advance of the fixture.}

{Advice to players: Under the laws of chess a player does not need to keep score once they have less than 5 minutes left When playing with an increment the MCF recommends that you keep score at all times. If you do not keep score you cannot claim a draw under the 50 move rule, or by repetition etc and the game may last an excessive time.}
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm

2. When I had less than 5 minutes left I paused the clock and I asked someone to write down my Chess moves, when we finished he said this is not a rule in the league
Or in any league for that matter. If there's a watching arbiter it's possible that they may keep score but you don't have any rights to stop the clocks and demand this.

Were you playing under increment?

If Manchester clubs are using the usual DGTs, the more recent models will count the number of times they are pressed, regardless of whether any use is made of the data. That ought to enable a more relaxed wording to be used when combining a 50 move claim with not scoring under 5 minutes remaining.

Ian Thompson
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm
1. When the venue phone was ringing I mentioned someone should switch it off, my opponent looked at me and he said: What can you do...
Stop the clocks until the disturbance stops. The arbiter would then have to decide if this was a reasonable thing to do or not.
John Reyes wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm
2. When I had less than 5 minutes left I paused the clock and I asked someone to write down my Chess moves, when we finished he said this is not a rule in the league
You can't ask someone else to keep score for you so you have an -up-to-date scroesheet with which to make a claim. The arbiter might decide to record the moves if neither player is keeping score.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:11 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:29 pm
You can't ask someone else to keep score for you so you have an -up-to-date scoresheet with which to make a claim. The arbiter might decide to record the moves if neither player is keeping score.
What you say is quite correct.

However, in league matches with no arbiter present, I think that you can reasonably ask someone to keep score so that you have a record after the game. The person doing this should ensure that their scoresheet cannot be seen by either player.

NickFaulks
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:49 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:11 am
However, in league matches with no arbiter present, I think that you can reasonably ask someone to keep score so that you have a record after the game.
I have always felt that this is a sensible thing for someone, perhaps the team captain, to do whether requested or not. In the event of a dispute this must be useful evidence, although its accuracy can of course be challenged.

Even when there is an arbiter present, they may need to deputise someone to perform this task. Nowadays in a FIDE rated event I fear that person might need to be a Licensed Arbiter, which would be a real nuisance.

Mick Norris
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:48 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm
Were you playing under increment?

If Manchester clubs are using the usual DGTs, the more recent models will count the number of times they are pressed, regardless of whether any use is made of the data. That ought to enable a more relaxed wording to be used when combining a 50 move claim with not scoring under 5 minutes remaining.
Most but not all clubs have DGT clocks; many but not all :roll: of them use incremental time controls; I'm not sure how many players know about the move counter, or more importantly, know how to check

The answer to John's original question, of course, is to ask the MCF directly and he'll get an answer :D
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

harrylamb
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by harrylamb » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:01 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:11 am

What you say is quite correct.

However, in league matches with no arbiter present, I think that you can reasonably ask someone to keep score so that you have a record after the game. The person doing this should ensure that their scoresheet cannot be seen by either player.
While I agree with all that I think John takes it a step too far.
I think it is OK to ask a friend to write the moves down for the sole purpose of giving you a complete game score
I think it is OK to get up to find someone to write down the moves
But John wants to pause the clocks and that I think is wrong. I think the clock should be left running
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:38 pm

In leagues with an intermediate time control, if both players are in severe time trouble it can help avoid disputes if someone is available to keep score so that the players can agree on whether the time control was reached if a flag falls. I have done this writing of moves sometimes. Doesn't apply in games with an increment or in a QPF part of a game.

John Reyes
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by John Reyes » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:26 pm

harrylamb wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:01 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:11 am

What you say is quite correct.

However, in league matches with no arbiter present, I think that you can reasonably ask someone to keep score so that you have a record after the game. The person doing this should ensure that their scoresheet cannot be seen by either player.
While I agree with all that I think John takes it a step too far.
I think it is OK to ask a friend to write the moves down for the sole purpose of giving you a complete game score
I think it is OK to get up to find someone to write down the moves
But John wants to pause the clocks and that I think is wrong. I think the clock should be left running
[/quote

Harry this is not me but one of my teammates and hence Asking this question
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

John Reyes
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by John Reyes » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:46 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm
John Reyes wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:07 pm

2. When I had less than 5 minutes left I paused the clock and I asked someone to write down my Chess moves, when we finished he said this is not a rule in the league
Or in any league for that matter. If there's a watching arbiter it's possible that they may keep score but you don't have any rights to stop the clocks and demand this.

Were you playing under increment?

If Manchester clubs are using the usual DGTs, the more recent models will count the number of times they are pressed, regardless of whether any use is made of the data. That ought to enable a more relaxed wording to be used when combining a 50 move claim with not scoring under 5 minutes remaining.
Nope 30 moves in 1:15 and back 20 minutes
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Ted Black
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Ted Black » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:29 pm

Article 8 of the FIDE rules is quite clear.

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.4 If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock at some stage in a period and does not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then for the remainder of the period he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1.1

8.5.1 If neither player keeps score under Article 8.4, the arbiter or an assistant should try to be present and keep score. In this case, immediately after a flag has fallen the arbiter shall stop the chessclock. Then both players shall update their scoresheets, using the arbiter’s or the opponent’s scoresheet.

8.5.2 If only one player has not kept score under Article 8.4, he must, as soon as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard. Provided it is that player’s move, he may use his opponent’s scoresheet, but must return it before making a move.

So, as long as your opponent is writing down the moves as they are obliged to, I would say having someone else write your moves down for you because you have less than 5 minutes is not allowed. You have to catch up when the TC has been reached, or if its an RP finish, when the game has concluded.

David Sedgwick
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:34 pm

Ted Black wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:29 pm
Article 8 of the FIDE rules is quite clear.

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.4 If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock at some stage in a period and does not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then for the remainder of the period he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1.1

8.5.1 If neither player keeps score under Article 8.4, the arbiter or an assistant should try to be present and keep score. In this case, immediately after a flag has fallen the arbiter shall stop the chessclock. Then both players shall update their scoresheets, using the arbiter’s or the opponent’s scoresheet.

8.5.2 If only one player has not kept score under Article 8.4, he must, as soon as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard. Provided it is that player’s move, he may use his opponent’s scoresheet, but must return it before making a move.

So, as long as your opponent is writing down the moves as they are obliged to, I would say having someone else write your moves down for you because you have less than 5 minutes is not allowed. You have to catch up when the TC has been reached, or if its an RP finish, when the game has concluded.
I fail to see how the sentence which I have emboldened follows from the Article which you have quoted.

Martyn Harris
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Martyn Harris » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:22 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:34 pm
Ted Black wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:29 pm

8.1.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibly as possible, in the algebraic notation (Appendix C), on the ‘scoresheet’ prescribed for the competition.

8.4 If a player has less than five minutes left on his clock at some stage in a period and does not have additional time of 30 seconds or more added with each move, then for the remainder of the period he is not obliged to meet the requirements of Article 8.1.1

8.5.1 If neither player keeps score under Article 8.4, the arbiter or an assistant should try to be present and keep score. In this case, immediately after a flag has fallen the arbiter shall stop the chessclock. Then both players shall update their scoresheets, using the arbiter’s or the opponent’s scoresheet.

8.5.2 If only one player has not kept score under Article 8.4, he must, as soon as either flag has fallen, update his scoresheet completely before moving a piece on the chessboard. Provided it is that player’s move, he may use his opponent’s scoresheet, but must return it before making a move.

So, as long as your opponent is writing down the moves as they are obliged to, I would say having someone else write your moves down for you because you have less than 5 minutes is not allowed. You have to catch up when the TC has been reached, or if its an RP finish, when the game has concluded.
I fail to see how the sentence which I have emboldened follows from the Article which you have quoted.
I think this may depend on which time control is referred to. For an intermediate time control, having someone keep score on your behalf relieves you of the need to update your scoresheet in the prescribed fashion - I'm considering here the practice of the player handing his scoresheet over to a recorder rather than the situation where the recorder keeps score on a separate sheet. For the final time control David's comment seems eminently sensible:
David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:11 am
However, in league matches with no arbiter present, I think that you can reasonably ask someone to keep score so that you have a record after the game. The person doing this should ensure that their scoresheet cannot be seen by either player.
On the events as described my issue would have been with the pausing of the clock for which I see no grounds.

Ted Black
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Ted Black » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:28 am

I fail to see how the sentence which I have emboldened follows from the Article which you have quoted.
8.5.2 states that if only 1 player has not kept score (ie; his opponent is scoring the game as they have to under the rules because they have more than 5 minutes remaining), the player who has not been writing down the moves must update his scoresheet once an intermediate TC has been reached. He is not entitled to ask someone to score for him, as this would be deemed as receiving assistance, and the law quite clearly says he must catch up in his own time. I agree that it depends on the TC in operation, but unless both players have less than 5 minutes and neither is scoring, then having someone to score the games is acceptable. The point I am making is if either player is keeping score, then the one who is not must catch up from his opponents scoresheet when he is able to do so.

Ted Black
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Re: 5 Minutes on the Clock

Post by Ted Black » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:45 am

For example, say the TC is 30 moves in 75 minutes followed by 15 minutes RP finish. Player A gets into time trouble and has less than 5 minutes left to make 10 moves say. Player B has over 30 minutes remaining at this point. Player A no longer writes the moves down, as he is allowed to, and player B continues to write the moves down, as he is obliged to under the rules.

Player A makes the TC at 30 moves, so both players have an extra 15 minutes, and he must now update his scoresheet, as he must do under the rules, in his OWN time, using player B's scoresheet.

Therefore, if player A had had someone scoring the moves for him whilst he was not obliged to do so himself, then he does not have to catch up with the moves on his scoresheet in his OWN time, which I think means he has gained an advantage he is not entitled to. He no longer has to use his OWN time to update his scoresheet, which might make a difference to the outcome of the game.

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