Is this a win?

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Nick Burrows
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Is this a win?

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:36 am

So I had a position tonight that was approximately this:



I was white with about 2 minutes left. My opponent was down to 2 seconds. I played Kb7, realised it was illegal before hitting my clock, and changed my move to Kb8. Then...Nc4 2.a6 and his flag fell.

I thought I had won, albeit ingloriously. Then the opposing team pointed out that I had made an illegal move, and discussed amongst themselves whether they should claim 2 minutes and thus win. The illegal move had passed without a claim, and a further move made that flagged him. In the confusion, and with a hopelessly lost position, we agreed a draw as a 'fair' result.

My question is could I claim a win?

Considering he chose not to offer a draw at any point in acute time trouble (which I would have accepted), I think claiming a win is reasonable. So long as the unclaimed illegal move cannot be claimed retrospectively.

What a mess!

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:41 am

You corrected the move before pressing the clock, so the illegal move penalty is not applicable.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:01 am

Even if you release the piece?

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:32 am

7.5.1 An illegal move is completed once the playr has pressed his clock. Thus 1 Kb7, pause Kb8 and press the clock is OK.
1...Nc4 and it would be too late for him to claim that your Kb7 adjusted to Kb8 had disturbed him.
2 a6 and his flag fell.
You could have won at that stage. I presume there was no arbiter present, had there been you would not have had to claim. I presume the two captains did not act as a joint arbiter. Therefore you would have had to claim the win. But you didn't. Instead you offered A draw and this was accepted.

So, in answer to your question. could I claim a win? NO.
It was not a mess,
If you really meant, could I have claimed a win? Then the answer would have been YES. But you didn't.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:36 am
I was white with about 2 minutes left. My opponent was down to 2 seconds.
Assuming you weren't playing on increments, why didn't your opponent offer a draw while his flag was still standing? If it was refused escalate the offer to a claim of "unable to win".

NickFaulks
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:44 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 am
Assuming you weren't playing on increments, why didn't your opponent offer a draw while his flag was still standing?
Because, in the heat of the moment, people just don't. Either they forget what they are supposed to do or, in many cases and not limited to inexperienced players, they simply don't know.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:50 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:01 am
Even if you release the piece?
Yes, even if you released the piece. You did nothing wrong with your Kb7/b8 change-of-mind.

David Robertson
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by David Robertson » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:10 pm

Either way, no matter the technical/legal points, the ethics of the game are being compromised here.

It's a scrappy-ar$ed way to conclude a game. White is bust beyond redemption on the board and, absent the clock, should resign. But given the clock position, he'd like to offer an honourable draw on the position which Black would be wise to accept. Alas, as material stands, it's really Black who should offer the draw - as Nick was expecting.

But, of course, neither party has time to push out moves, and at the same time keep a clear head for the right (ie. honourable/courteous) course of action. It is a mess. QPFs are a violation of the game, causing rancour and regret. But happily here, people stumbled into a fair settlement. It doesn't always happen

Nick Burrows
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:34 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:32 am
It was not a mess
He was completely won. If he offered a draw I accept. He runs out of time. I think it's a win, but can't think coherently to argue my case due to the frenetic, emotional finish and question to myself the ethics of trying to claim a win. Not one of 8 experienced players have a full grasp of the rules. The opposing team debate claiming a win. If that's not a messy way to conclude a game, then I'd pay to see one that you consider is a mess :lol:

Nick Burrows
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Nick Burrows » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:36 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 am
Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:36 am
I was white with about 2 minutes left. My opponent was down to 2 seconds.
Assuming you weren't playing on increments, why didn't your opponent offer a draw while his flag was still standing?
There were no increments. I think he thought he could win it, until it was too late. The 4 beers he drank, may have had an influence!

Nick Grey
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:33 pm

He ought to have claimed under the 2 minute rule.
You are not winning.
You accepted a draw so it is not a win. :D

Nick Burrows
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Nick Burrows » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:06 pm

So although White has the right to claim a win - should he claim a win?

Black had a draw in hand and only needed to offer. The fact that he chose not to, and play for an unlikely win should be penalised if the gamble fails. Otherwise you may as well make a rule that says a player in a winning position can use all his remaining time with a draw in hand.

If a similar scenario occurs in the future, I think I will claim the win.

NickFaulks
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:29 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:06 pm
If a similar scenario occurs in the future, I think I will claim the win.
I think you're right - it isn't your fault that your opponent did everything wrong. Also, as such unsatisfactory finishes keep piling up, the forces opposed to increments may eventually weaken.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:52 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:06 pm
If a similar scenario occurs in the future, I think I will claim the win.
What did the position look like at 2 minutes out? The "short of time" technique is to eliminate White's last pawn, so there's no question of losing.

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Is this a win?

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:51 pm

Nick Burrows wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:01 am
Even if you release the piece?
A move is completed only after you press the clock. So no move was made prior to pressing the clock.

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