English Chess Forum

I was recently at a blitz tournament, and an issue came up which isn't dealt with directly within the rules. Although it's true to say that Arbiters have a number of ways of dealing with the problem.

I have heard a number of different opinions, and for that reason I'm keen to elicit more feedback. I think this will be useful for Arbiters as well as my own curiosity.


The Problem can be described as follows :
Imagine you are at a blitz tournament. Each player has 10 minutes on his clock. When you make your move, your opponent immediately makes his move - before you have even completed your move (by pressing your clock). In this instance, the opponent had sometimes even made his move before I had taken my hand away from the piece I had moved.


I have recently been playing alot of internet chess as I am returning to chess after a long break - so I feel quite comfortable dealing with the situation - which is to force my opponent to take his move back and registering my strong disapproval. This can also attract some attention and may force the player to behave, although that can still cost me an extra 10-20 seconds whilst I make the point.


Unfortunately it's worse for other players who may not be so confident, or who collapse under time pressure. In these scenarios the bamboozling player can amass a significant advantage.


How do you feel this should be dealt with, which chess law(s) deals with it, and what should the remedy be ?

Can people PLEASE double check what section they are posting in save me moving stuff about

Peter Rhodes wrote:How do you feel this should be dealt with, which chess law(s) deals with it, and what should the remedy be ?

I thought the convention was that you get to press your clock anyway, so that you might take a second off your opponent's time even if already moved. At least that's the way that players really short of time in normal chess have handled it.

Peter Rhodes wrote:The Problem can be described as follows :
Imagine you are at a blitz tournament. Each player has 10 minutes on his clock. When you make your move, your opponent immediately makes his move - before you have even completed your move (by pressing your clock). In this instance, the opponent had sometimes even made his move before I had taken my hand away from the piece I had moved.

I have recently been playing alot of internet chess as I am returning to chess after a long break - so I feel quite comfortable dealing with the situation - which is to force my opponent to take his move back and registering my strong disapproval. This can also attract some attention and may force the player to behave, although that can still cost me an extra 10-20 seconds whilst I make the point.

If your opponent makes his move after you have let go of the piece(s) you were moving, but before you have pressed your clock, he has done nothing wrong. The only illegality in what you describe is your own actions. However, if an opponent does move before you have pressed your clock, your are still entitled to stop your clock. This is the rule in all forms of chess, regardless of whether it is standard play, rapidplay or blitz.

Ian Thompson wrote: If your opponent makes his move after you have let go of the piece(s) you were moving, but before you have pressed your clock, he has done nothing wrong. ... However, if an opponent does move before you have pressed your clock, your are still entitled to stop your clock.

Thanks Ian, that's interesting.... but why would you stop your clock if your opponent has done nothing wrong.

Peter Rhodes wrote:Thanks Ian, that's interesting.... but why would you stop your clock if your opponent has done nothing wrong.

So some of your opponent's time is used up (even if it is only a second or two). The sequence is - you move, your opponent replies instantly, you press your clock for the move you've just made, your opponent presses his clock for the move he's just made.

Of course, if the game is being played with a time increment, you would also want to press the clock to get your increment for the move you've just made.

Hmm, no increment in the recent tournament, but if the rules are as you say - I would definitely be encouraged to change my play to the style I mentioned. I can hit my clock pretty quick if I see my opponents hand going towards it - to complete his move during which I also made my move.


It's a shame FIDE don't have a rule to specifically cover this - or maybe they do and I'm just too dumb to find it

My knowledge is restricted to one blitz event a year. The tournament always starts with an explanation of the rules – whether these rules are local, national or international I’ve never bothered to ask. But just about rule one in the annual proclamation is that your move is not complete until you have pressed your clock. Therefore, if you move a piece, you can take the move back right up to the point before you’ve re-started your opponents clock.

It’s never been an issue, but if your opponent moves before you press your clock you can re-take your last move. This could prove useful, for example, if your opponent’s quick move exposes a catastrophic blunder on your part. Simply take the move back and move the same piece (of course it must be the same piece) to another, better, square.

Frankly, it could be used for even greater advantage. The scenario might go:
i. bishop move to undefended square attacked by rook – clock not restarted!
ii. opponent immediately plays rook x bishop??
iii. take back the bishop move, so the undefended bishop now attacks the Queen – press clock!!
iv. any rook move (forced?) – losing the Queen?

Is this rubbish? In standard play, if you move a piece when it’s your opponents turn (I’ve seen it happen more often than should be normal) are you forced to move that piece when your go comes around? But never mind the rule. Your opponent is probably going to be completely ignorant of the correct convention and given the sound rule expertise you have already established over the board, he’ll probably be convinced of your superior knowledge and so you must be right again!! In any case you’ll be debating this during his time!!

A move is not complete until you've pressed your clock, but you're committed to it once your hand has left the piece. Thus, you can rescue an illegal move if you notice it before pressing the clock, but a legal move has to stand.

Jack

I bow to your greater depth of expertise......but in the annual London Civil Service League Team Blitz, rule 1 is that you can take back any move legal or illegal, so long as you haven't pressed your clock.........unless of course I'm wrong! Which is always possible!

FM Jack Rudd wrote:A move is not complete until you've pressed your clock, but you're committed to it once your hand has left the piece. Thus, you can rescue an illegal move if you notice it before pressing the clock, but a legal move has to stand.

Also relevant to the situation described is that the opponent of a player who has just played an illegal move loses the right to claim when he makes his own move (which means he's played the move on board, but not necessarily pressed his clock). This applies to rapidplay and blitz chess only.

The rules also say (C5) that "Once the opponent has made his own move, an illegal move cannot be corrected unless mutually agreed without intervention of an arbiter." This means that if you play an illegal move and your opponent replies to it, you cannot correct it, even if you haven't yet pressed your clock.

David Gilbert wrote:Jack

I bow to your greater depth of expertise......but in the annual London Civil Service League Team Blitz, rule 1 is that you can take back any move legal or illegal, so long as you haven't pressed your clock.........unless of course I'm wrong! Which is always possible!

These are not the FIDE Laws. Touch and move applies to all forms of chess in the FIDE Laws, and, as Jack says, once you let go of a piece you are moving the move cannot be retracted if it is legal.

Ian

You are forgetting that these are Whitehall Civil Servants - the law makers! So what's the matter with changing a few chess rules among ourselves - especially as they don't even require to pass through the negative resolution process!!

David Gilbert wrote: Frankly, it could be used for even greater advantage. The scenario might go:
i. bishop move to undefended square attacked by rook – clock not restarted!
ii. opponent immediately plays rook x bishop??
iii. take back the bishop move, so the undefended bishop now attacks the Queen – press clock!!
iv. any rook move (forced?) – losing the Queen?

Jack Rudd wrote: A move is not complete until you've pressed your clock, but you're committed to it once your hand has left the piece. Thus, you can rescue an illegal move if you notice it before pressing the clock, but a legal move has to stand.

Interestingly, Jack is correct to point this out, however.....

Article 4.7 wrote: A player forfeits his right to a claim against his opponent’s violation of Article 4 once he deliberately touches a piece.

Article 4 deals with all of the rules regarding the legal movement of the pieces. However, using this rule in this situation would be paradoxical because on the one hand your opponent has started his move, yet on the other hand you have not yet completed your move.

I've looked through the FIDE rules and I honestly feel that they fail to clearly define whether a move ends when you have completed a legal move, or when you have pressed your clock (or both).

Peter Rhodes wrote:

Article 4.7 wrote: A player forfeits his right to a claim against his opponent’s violation of Article 4 once he deliberately touches a piece.

Article 4 deals with all of the rules regarding the legal movement of the pieces. However, using this rule in this situation would be paradoxical because on the one hand your opponent has started his move, yet on the other hand you have not yet completed your move.

I don't think you are looking at all the rules you need to. Article 4 applies to all forms of chess, and says, for example, that you lose the right to claim that your opponent touched one piece and then moved a different one as soon as you touch one of your own pieces with the intention of moving it.

Claims for illegal moves in standard play chess are covered by article 7. It requires the illegal move to be corrected no matter how many more moves have been played before it is noticed. In rapidplay and blitz its different. A4 and B3 alter article 7 and only allow claims for illegal moves to be made before you've replied to your opponent's illegal move.

Peter Rhodes wrote:I've looked through the FIDE rules and I honestly feel that they fail to clearly define whether a move ends when you have completed a legal move, or when you have pressed your clock (or both).

That's a pity, because some of the changes that were made to the 2009 Laws were intended to make this clear. What they try to say is that a move is "made" once its been played on the board, but is not "complete" until a player has stopped his clock - see Articles 4.6 and 6.7 a.