Handshakes

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Reg Clucas
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:20 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:06 pm

Kissing offered hand from a female may increase those taking up the game.
Or may have the reverse effect!

Eric Gardiner
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Eric Gardiner » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:28 am

Reg Clucas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:48 pm

I suppose we have all encountered the kind of utterly limp "handshake" that seems to be popular with young players in particular?
'Popular' may not be the correct description - I think it's simply that no-one has educated them in the correct etiquette.
Isn't it possible that some children are a little intimidated by shaking hands with a much physically stronger adult?

John McKenna
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Re: Handshakes

Post by John McKenna » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:36 am

Reg Clucas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:20 pm
Nick Grey wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:06 pm

Kissing offered hand from a female may increase those taking up the game.
Or may have the reverse effect!
This custom is a bit too old-fashioned these days.

Though I remember seeing Smyslov, Portisch, Hort and other old charmers practising it on the world's best young ladies, such as Xie Jun, in the series of matches between them.
Eric Gardiner wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:28 am
Reg Clucas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:19 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:48 pm

I suppose we have all encountered the kind of utterly limp "handshake" that seems to be popular with young players in particular?
'Popular' may not be the correct description - I think it's simply that no-one has educated them in the correct etiquette.
Isn't it possible that some children are a little intimidated by shaking hands with a much physically stronger adult?
When I played a couple of Japanese juniors earlier this year we simply bowed at the start but I was surprised that both the teenager and the under-10 shot their hands straight out right across the board with what amounted to a demand , in English, for a "Draw!" (I didn't have to agree - as both positions had winning chances for both sides, they thought more for me that themselves - but I did.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John Swain
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Re: Handshakes

Post by John Swain » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:51 am

Phil Neatherway wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:04 pm
Is there ever a good reason for not shaking hands after the game?
At some junior events, I've seen players encouraged or even told by a supervising adult to "shake hands" at the end of a game, sometimes after confirmation by an adult that mate has occurred on the board. The players should ideally determine mate for themselves, but some organisers take the view that it is preferable to ensure fair play (e.g. that one player hasn't announced mate and the other just accepted it without scrutiny) and so the children put up their hands and wait for a supervising adult to confirm mate, especially when the players are very young and inexperienced.

It is worth pointing out that a handshake on its own does not confirm the end of the game. It occasionally happens that a player suddenly realises that he/she hasn't been mated, lost significant material or whatever and wishes to continue the game. A handshake on its own does not signify resignation (or for that matter acceptance of a draw offer). Sometimes, I've had to explain this to a tearful junior - "But he shook hands …"

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:57 pm

I did see one particular junior offer a draw and accompany this with the straight-out hand awaiting agreement. Later in the game he just held the hand out, when it was shaken, he reported the result as a draw, whilst his opponent reported it as a win...

Brian Towers
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:31 pm

If either player has been coughing or sneezing into their hand throughout the game I think not shaking hands is reasonable.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Joseph Conlon » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:56 pm

John Swain wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:51 am
Phil Neatherway wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:04 pm
Is there ever a good reason for not shaking hands after the game?
It is worth pointing out that a handshake on its own does not confirm the end of the game. It occasionally happens that a player suddenly realises that he/she hasn't been mated, lost significant material or whatever and wishes to continue the game. A handshake on its own does not signify resignation (or for that matter acceptance of a draw offer).
I don't really see the logic of this. If a player looks at the board, thinks they have been mated or are about to lose a queen, and then sticks out their hand to their opponent with some rueful frown or comment of 'well played', to me that would denote resignation and as such immediately ends the game, whether or not they then suddenly realise that they are not after all lost.

Likewise if player A has made their move with a draw offer, and player B thinks about it and then puts their hand out and both players shake, again that looks like an accepted draw offer and thus the immediate end of the game.

(The occasional bad junior habit of sticking out the hand in a lost position and then as the opponent takes it saying 'Draw' would be another matter though, or if player A announces mate and grabs his opponents hand to shake it before the opponent has time to check it isn't actually mate)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:15 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:56 pm
John Swain wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:51 am
Phil Neatherway wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:04 pm
Is there ever a good reason for not shaking hands after the game?
It is worth pointing out that a handshake on its own does not confirm the end of the game. It occasionally happens that a player suddenly realises that he/she hasn't been mated, lost significant material or whatever and wishes to continue the game. A handshake on its own does not signify resignation (or for that matter acceptance of a draw offer).
I don't really see the logic of this. If a player looks at the board, thinks they have been mated or are about to lose a queen, and then sticks out their hand to their opponent with some rueful frown or comment of 'well played', to me that would denote resignation and as such immediately ends the game, whether or not they then suddenly realise that they are not after all lost.

Likewise if player A has made their move with a draw offer, and player B thinks about it and then puts their hand out and both players shake, again that looks like an accepted draw offer and thus the immediate end of the game.

(The occasional bad junior habit of sticking out the hand in a lost position and then as the opponent takes it saying 'Draw' would be another matter though, or if player A announces mate and grabs his opponents hand to shake it before the opponent has time to check it isn't actually mate)
Don't both of the scenarios you provided in the first two paragraphs mean that you agree with John, since neither of them are "a handshake on its own"?

Joseph Conlon
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Joseph Conlon » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Alex:

I don't think so. Or to be more precise, I think there are plenty of circumstances where the act of initiating a handshake, by itself, would automatically denote either resignation or acceptance of a draw offer, whether or not accompanied by anything else.

I also find it hard to think of circumstances where offering a handshake after an apparent loss of significant material could count as retractable rather than a resignation.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:01 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:30 pm
Alex:

I don't think so. Or to be more precise, I think there are plenty of circumstances where the act of initiating a handshake, by itself, would automatically denote either resignation or acceptance of a draw offer, whether or not accompanied by anything else.

I also find it hard to think of circumstances where offering a handshake after an apparent loss of significant material could count as retractable rather than a resignation.
The Laws actually say "The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game."

I have experienced lots of cases where there is a handshake, and one person goes away thinking it's a draw and the other person goes away thinking their opponent has resigned, and nobody said anything to anyone. So they tell the arbiter independently what the result is, and there's a kerfuffle. This happens mostly in Rapid/Blitz when there is no written record of the game. It's not just children's events where this happens, either.

John Swain
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Handshakes

Post by John Swain » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:14 pm

The Chess Arbiters Association has published some helpful clarification about the January 2018 FIDE Laws:

Article 5: The completion of the game 5.1.1 The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 — 4.7.

The method of resigning can vary e.g. knocking over the king. A player extending his hand is a common source of confusion at the end of the game. There are several cases where one player thought he had won and the other that the game was drawn. Arbiters should try to ensure that both players agree on the result. Particularly in junior tournaments it can be discovered that one player accepts he was mated to discover later that he could prevent the mate. If a result is reported by both players that can be accepted. Where a player announces mate and immediately shakes hands only for it to be discovered seconds later that the move played was not mate he should not be given the win despite any handshake.

This is taken from: http://www.chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/Laws2018.pdf

Ian Thompson
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:29 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:01 pm
I have experienced lots of cases where there is a handshake, and one person goes away thinking it's a draw and the other person goes away thinking their opponent has resigned, and nobody said anything to anyone. So they tell the arbiter independently what the result is, and there's a kerfuffle. This happens mostly in Rapid/Blitz when there is no written record of the game.
So what do you do to resolve it? For example, in a quickplay finish where both players have stopped recording the game 30 moves ago, Black is winning easily, but carelessly stalemates White. White offers a handshake and the players shake hands. The pieces are reset. White then reports a draw and Black reports a win. White says it was drawn because it was stalemate. Black does not agree.

NickFaulks
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Re: Handshakes

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:38 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:01 pm
I have experienced lots of cases where there is a handshake, and one person goes away thinking it's a draw and the other person goes away thinking their opponent has resigned
I was involved in a notorious case where both players went away believing they had won. Matters were not helped when my opponent volunteered to report the result and erroneously ( as he saw it ) reported that he had lost.

One moral of this story is that you can never assume that a combination of events is so unlikely as not to be worth bothering about.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:22 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:29 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:01 pm
I have experienced lots of cases where there is a handshake, and one person goes away thinking it's a draw and the other person goes away thinking their opponent has resigned, and nobody said anything to anyone. So they tell the arbiter independently what the result is, and there's a kerfuffle. This happens mostly in Rapid/Blitz when there is no written record of the game.
So what do you do to resolve it? For example, in a quickplay finish where both players have stopped recording the game 30 moves ago, Black is winning easily, but carelessly stalemates White. White offers a handshake and the players shake hands. The pieces are reset. White then reports a draw and Black reports a win. White says it was drawn because it was stalemate. Black does not agree.
In the most recent case where it happened, I decided that because no draw offer had been accepted, or no resignation had been offered, depending on your point of view, that the game hadn't finished yet so they should go back to the board and play on. One player was a Bishop up. They tried to get back to the position as best they could. The player who was winning could just about remember the position. The player who was losing disagreed with a few things. The player who was winning was still winning even with these amendments, so he just accepted them. Clock times were more or less agreed upon. So they just played on from there.

The important thing about my deciding that the game hadn't ended yet was that if the player who was losing refused to play on because he thought he'd drawn, then I'd decide that due to him refusing to play on, he'd lose the game. This would also happen in a situation where the winning player could remember the position, but the losing player couldn't and refused to accept what the winning player said the position was.

The player who was a Bishop up went on to win.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Handshakes

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:25 pm

In my younger days we did not shake hand before or after the game. I, and many others, learnt the practise of shaking hands before the game from foreign players. In 1966(?) in Bewewijk, the tournament was started and all 10 of us in the round robin did a simultaneously display, shaking hands with the other 9.
Even today I seldom shake hands after the game, unless m oppponent puts his out.

Recently I asked Dr Jana Bellin whether the practice of shking hands was unsanitary. She said, no, you get more germs travelling on the Lodon Underground. But, if you are on a cruise ship, it is standard pratcice never now to shake hand.

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