End of an era

[JustinHorton]

I can recall posting about both of those on here, but I don't think either of them would fulfill the "all my life" qualification.

[Chris Goodall]

interesting though Ray was in his own right, one of the interesting things about him was what his career told us about the chess community.

It tells us that the average chess player is less desperate to cancel Ray Keene than the self-appointed captain of Team Cancel Ray Keene is. I am not sure to whom this would be a surprise.

[JustinHorton]

"When you think you're making a point, but in fact you're making the same point"

[Neil Graham]

other fraudsters haven't really been active in English chess for all my life, have they?

There was the BCF Finance Director, in, I think, the mid- to late-1970s, who was found to have been temporarily diverting BCF funds to his own account, to pocket the interest for a few weeks, before passing the funds on to the BCF. If I recall correctly, he'd been doing this for several years before he was found out and the total amount involved was a few thousand pounds.

More recently there's also Gary Quillan, although his activities were not related to his being a chess player.

Ian's recollection is not quite correct. Funds were permanently paid into false accounts by the then director Peter Ezra. As recently as 2007 Mr Ezra was declaring when he stood for the local council that "He is a keen chess player and until recently was Treasurer of the British Chess Federation." which was patently rubbish.

He is mentioned in previous threads if people care to research.

[JustinHorton]

There's a certain amount of "before" and "after" about the BGN affair - Ray's never been the same since, certainly if we're thinking of his ambitions to be a major figure in the chess world, and he kind of laid low for a few years afterwards. (He wasn't in Private Eye much if at all, for instance.)

As if by magic

(There appears to have been nothing between December 2003 and October 2008. A slightly shorter period than perhaps I'd thought.)

[Jon Mahony]

other fraudsters haven't really been active in English chess for all my life, have they?

There was the BCF Finance Director, in, I think, the mid- to late-1970s, who was found to have been temporarily diverting BCF funds to his own account, to pocket the interest for a few weeks, before passing the funds on to the BCF. If I recall correctly, he'd been doing this for several years before he was found out and the total amount involved was a few thousand pounds.

More recently there's also Gary Quillan, although his activities were not related to his being a chess player.

Ian's recollection is not quite correct. Funds were permanently paid into false accounts by the then director Peter Ezra. As recently as 2007 Mr Ezra was declaring when he stood for the local council that "He is a keen chess player and until recently was Treasurer of the British Chess Federation." which was patently rubbish.

He is mentioned in previous threads if people care to research.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"When you think you're making a point, but in fact you're making the same point"

Yes - I agree that is irritating.

I'm not in a hurry to identify living malefactors, who are probably richer than me and might sue, with the aid of people who may well commit perjury for them!

[JustinHorton]

PM me the names in confidence if you feel like. But they'll be going some to match the longevity of Ray's career of dubious activities.

[Angus French]

(I also think Angus may have been referring to earlier meetings that you said you had attended.)

In that case, there has been a misunderstanding. To the best of my recollection, I have never attended any meeting at the House of Commons with which Ray Keene was involved.

I did attend an event organised by him at the House of Lords. I cannot recall exactly when, but I do not think that it was either of the events to which you alluded upthread.

Ah, I only had the most recent meeting in mind. I was aware of previous House of Lords meetings by organisations of which Ray Keene was a part - hence my interest in the most recent meeting - but I hadn't linked David with those.

[Chris Goodall]

I think the point is that, if it makes you feel good to be the most extreme proponent of a certain position, you can hardly be upset to discover that the average person's position is more moderate than yours.

[Brian Egdell]

I think the point is that, if it makes you feel good to be the most extreme proponent of a certain position, you can hardly be upset to discover that the average person's position is more moderate than yours.

An "extreme proponent" of a position would be someone who, by definition of extreme, is not basing their opinion on what are regarded by the mainstream as the facts of a case. It is not reasonable to label someone extreme when they have done extensive work on exposing those facts and presenting them to anyone who is interested in reading about them.

[Roger Lancaster]

I think the point is that, if it makes you feel good to be the most extreme proponent of a certain position, you can hardly be upset to discover that the average person's position is more moderate than yours.

An "extreme proponent" of a position would be someone who, by definition of extreme, is not basing their opinion on what are regarded by the mainstream as the facts of a case. It is not reasonable to label someone extreme when they have done extensive work on exposing those facts and presenting them to anyone who is interested in reading about them.

Apologies for the pedantry but I think you'll find that most definitions of "extreme" include the word "furthest" (or a similar superlative) and that "extreme" relates to the 'where' rather than the 'how'.

[J T Melsom]

Justin is persistent and sometimes obsessive, but only because he feels that the conduct of Keene and his support from within the chess community raises questions about that community. Discussing Justin is a diversion from the main point, though some might find that easier than addressing the key question. Personally, I'm not sure that the problem of characters like Keene is peculiar to chess, or prevalent to any extent more than other organisations, but I agree with Justin and others that communities do have to address these issues or face difficulties further down the road. Is the chess community able to weed out those bad apples or not?

[JustinHorton]

Discussing Justin is a diversion from the main point, though some might find that easier than addressing the key question.

Standard procedure though, I'm very used to it, and while it generally functions as a diversion I suppose it may also reflect an inability - or unwillingness - of some people to conceive of doing something for reasons other than personal grudges. It's not important though, and nor am I - the important thing is to face up to how, as a community, we allowed Ray to get away with so much, with the general idea of not doing it again in tbe future.

[JustinHorton]

Personally, I'm not sure that the problem of characters like Keene is peculiar to chess, or prevalent to any extent more than other organisations

Maybe, and it's certainly not unique to chess, but still, the sheer length of time he's been going and the amount of stuff he's packed in, you know? And the most striking thing about it is how many people just chose to ignore it, treated him as a perfectly legitimate figure and so on. So I wonder if as a community we have demonstrated an uncomfortably large propensity for choosing not to see things that are right in front of us. Of course there is much more to it than that.

(Just as an aside, I mentioned Sheffield a bit earlier, and it's absolutely extraordinary to me that somebody who has had to leave an organisation because he fiddled it out of money gets to come back and address its annual event. I can't think of anything like it. But of course this was just one bizarre matter among dozens.)