End of an era

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Tim Spanton
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Re: End of an era

Post by Tim Spanton » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:30 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:20 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:08 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:46 pm
I can't remember who it was who was particularly scathing about the Gunderam nonsense.
The Gunderam is usually regarded as 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Qe7. I'm aware that Ray came up with the idea 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7, but what went into the books?
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.c5

There's positionally a lot to be said for that idea, but the specifics of the position aren't right.
None of those lines is in The Openings In Modern Theory And Practice (as far as I can recall/discover from the index).
I had forgotten (but still have) The Evolution of Chess Opening Theory From Philidor To Kasparov, which came out in 1985.

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Geoff Chandler
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Re: End of an era

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:22 pm

Hi Justin,

Sure we have been here before. The copyright law.

If the moves of a game are not copyright, then analysis cannot be copyright.
To source an included 'White is better' or 'Black is lost' from a previous non-copyright
game is not needed unless, as I said, you may be correcting a faulty piece of published analysis.

I did say nicking whole paragraphs, (of the written word) without a source is wrong.

Re-cycling is disappointing (very disappointing regarding the Carlsen-Caruana match.)

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:51 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:22 pm
If the moves of a game are not copyright, then analysis cannot be copyright.
Spare us eh
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Tim Harding
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Re: End of an era

Post by Tim Harding » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:46 pm

Jonathan Bryant wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:20 am
...And anyway not in the same class as the Pirc/modern books (to name but 2).
One really, because the Modern was written by Keene and the Pirc by George Botterill.

Originally they had a contract to do one book on the two defences. When it became clear there was so much original material, Bob Wade agreed to split it but both names went on both books.
There was probably a bit of checking each other's work but essentially the Pirc was by Botterill.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Flank Openings, which was Ray's first book and one of his best.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: End of an era

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:25 pm

Tim Harding wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:46 pm
There was probably a bit of checking each other's work but essentially the Pirc was by Botterill.
There's a flavour of there being two different authors. There's a line which runs 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Bc4 which is included in the Austrian Attack chapters. Also 1.e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bc4 Bg7 5. f4 which is in the Bc4 chapter. Needless to say the suggested continuation is different across the chapters.

The continuation 5. .. d5 had been played by Raymond himself in his 1971 game at Palma against Ljubojevic. That had been from the Austrian move order which is where in the book the idea is suggested. There's not anything wrong with it, but over the years, the "obvious" continuation of 5. .. 0-0 has been preferred. The "fork trick" 5. .. Nxe4 is also OK as are 5. .. c5 and 5. .. c6.

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: End of an era

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:25 pm
Tim Harding wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:46 pm
There was probably a bit of checking each other's work but essentially the Pirc was by Botterill.
There's a flavour of there being two different authors. There's a line which runs 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Bc4 which is included in the Austrian Attack chapters. Also 1.e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bc4 Bg7 5. f4 which is in the Bc4 chapter. Needless to say the suggested continuation is different across the chapters.

The continuation 5. .. d5 had been played by Raymond himself in his 1971 game at Palma against Ljubojevic. That had been from the Austrian move order which is where in the book the idea is suggested. There's not anything wrong with it, but over the years, the "obvious" continuation of 5. .. 0-0 has been preferred. The "fork trick" 5. .. Nxe4 is also OK as are 5. .. c5 and 5. .. c6.


This is one of the reasons I think both books are well worth getting hold of, even now. They cover stuff like this and newer books don’t.

I had exactly the line that Roger mentions in tournament game a few years back. The Keene/botterill books were a great help in exploring the positions that result.

I didn’t know about how the labour was divided. Sounds entirely plausible (although Ray implies something a little different in Becoming a Grandmaster.


I agree about Flank Openings with one reservation ... I have the fourth edition and - like a Hollywood movie franchise, perhaps - progressively less effort seems to have been put in for each new edition.

Iirc somewhere in the 4th edition there’s a comment still in there about what would need updating if there was ever a third edition - which seems a bit lazy.

But again - half a century old or otherwise - a club chesser wanting to play these systems could do a lot worse than picking up a copy of this to start with

O.G. Urcan
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Re: End of an era

Post by O.G. Urcan » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:28 am

This "Visioneer" webpage has some familiar claims and some new ones:
https://thevisioneers.ca/visionary-lead ... -keene-obe

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:03 am

Ray's most recent plan is to create The Crustacean Carbon Exchange to encourage Aquaculture of oysters and other shellfish to provide DHA rich brain nutrition and reduce global C02 emissions, which are sequestered by crustacean shell formation.
Fantastic
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: End of an era

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:18 pm

In fairness "DHA" is probably good for you - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docosahexaenoic_acid is a reasonable summary.

Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) should now be called icosapentaenoic acid, but IPA has totally different effects on the brain, and shows the dangers of talking in abbreviations...

John McKenna
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Re: End of an era

Post by John McKenna » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:42 pm

IPA is fine as it is.

Spongebob on crustacean crime -

https://spongebob.fandom.com/wiki/Crust ... me_Theater
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:00 pm

"The Institute for Brain Chemistry and Human Nutrition", by the way, is not at "Imperial College", nor is it at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, it doesn't actually appear to have any present-day physical existence at all, and Ray's activities in this particular area are prerty morally deplorable.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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John Upham
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Re: End of an era

Post by John Upham » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:25 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:00 pm
"The Institute for Brain Chemistry and Human Nutrition", by the way, is not at "Imperial College", nor is it at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, it doesn't actually appear to have any present-day physical existence at all, and Ray's activities in this particular area are prerty morally deplorable.
Has IC been made aware of this claim ?
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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:37 pm

C&W has, at some level at least.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: End of an era

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:10 pm

Interestingly, if you look at the CV of the older Michael Crawford at IC (link in https://www.imperial.ac.uk/search/?q=michael+crawford), it says he is a former head of the IBCHN (left 2010). I also note he was working on fatty acid profiles for Government Food Tables in the early to mid-80s, as was I (for a different organization). I don't recall meeting him, and the name would have rung a bell.

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JustinHorton
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Re: End of an era

Post by JustinHorton » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Although you can also find him described as the Director at the top of this and elsewhere.

All of this is pretty opaque, but I'll try and write up as much as I know later (not now, though, it's Huesca v Zaragoza on the telly).
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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